GDT Fly boys vs Billikens

[ACE]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

 

Loe brought a lot more to the table.  He was an excellent passer out of the high post.  He saw the floor so well and really understood the importance of spacing.  I don't see any of that right now with Welmer.  Loe could handle the ball well for a big man and was a much better defender than Welmer.

 

How soon people forget the way Loe was ripped on this board his freshman year for being soft and not being able to play defense. I just looked at the numbers of Welmer and Loe from their freshman seasons... more similar than I previously thought 

Before you try to debate me on a position I have not taken again, let me be clear, I was a big Loe fan from the get go and think he was more talented than Welmer. Welmer is older and doesn't have Loe's upside. But some people seemed to not understand why you would have a big play away from the basket, that's what I was responding to and why I brought up Loe. IF Welmer and/or some yet to be named recruit can fill a role like Ellis and Loe (again, not saying it will be done quite as well), it will greatly help guys like Goodwin and anybody else who might have the ability to drive and finish.

 

[3star_recruit]

The guy who we expect to be our 4th best big man in 2018 is averaging 8 and 4.5 as a freshman. Man, we're going to be loaded.

[hoppybeer]

5 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

The guy who we expect to be our 4th best big man in 2018 is averaging 8 and 4.5 as a freshman. Man, we're going to be loaded.

Thank you for providing the appropriate perspective, people are overlooking this.

[AnkielBreakers]

3 hours ago, brianstl said:

 

Loe brought a lot more to the table.  He was an excellent passer out of the high post.  He saw the floor so well and really understood the importance of spacing.  I don't see any of that right now with Welmer.  Loe could handle the ball well for a big man and was a much better defender than Welmer.

 

As a freshman, Loe looked like a tall version of Shriek. He got the ball stripped from him almost every time he touched it. He was weak inside.  He had one game where he lit it up from 3 and he shot around 6  three-pointers every game, mostly he was not that impressive from 3.

He developed and improved.  Also, Welmer is more of a cross between Loe and Ellis.  I think he has shown as much or more than both as a first year player.

[Quality Is Job 1]

1 hour ago, AnkielBreakers said:

As a freshman, Loe looked like a tall version of Shriek. He got the ball stripped from him almost every time he touched it. He was weak inside.  He had one game where he lit it up from 3 and he shot around 6  three-pointers every game, mostly he was not that impressive from 3.

He developed and improved.  Also, Welmer is more of a cross between Loe and Ellis.  I think he has shown as much or more than both as a first year player.

Let me preface this comment with the disclaimer that I'm not down on Elliot Welmer, and I believe he'll contribute over the next three years.  That said, I can't agree with the comment that he has shown as much this year as Cody Ellis showed as a freshman.  When Cody gained his eligibility halfway through the 2009-10 season, the Billikens transformed from a just-better-than-average team to a CBI finalist that was stiffed by the NIT and had been nearly on the cusp of the NCAA Tournament bubble (i.e., they were in the conversation) with a team of all freshmen and sophomores.  Cody had, as a freshman, the biggest impact any SLU freshman has had since Larry Hughes, and no one has surpassed that since.  And we can only hope that Goodwin or French does.  So, no, I don't think Welmer matches that.

[hsmith19]

19 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Cody had, as a freshman, the biggest impact any SLU freshman has had since Larry Hughes, and no one has surpassed that since.

Holy hyperbole, Batman. Ellis got hot in a few games (especially early in the conference season), but his overall numbers were nothing special and he didn't have anywhere near the impact on that team that Willie Reed did making strides as a sophomore. If anything, Ellis fell short of the hype surrounding his arrival as a freshman and really didn't hit his stride until his junior year.

[AnkielBreakers]

1 hour ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Let me preface this comment with the disclaimer that I'm not down on Elliot Welmer, and I believe he'll contribute over the next three years.  That said, I can't agree with the comment that he has shown as much this year as Cody Ellis showed as a freshman.  When Cody gained his eligibility halfway through the 2009-10 season, the Billikens transformed from a just-better-than-average team to a CBI finalist that was stiffed by the NIT and had been nearly on the cusp of the NCAA Tournament bubble (i.e., they were in the conversation) with a team of all freshmen and sophomores.  Cody had, as a freshman, the biggest impact any SLU freshman has had since Larry Hughes, and no one has surpassed that since.  And we can only hope that Goodwin or French does.  So, no, I don't think Welmer matches that.

Just look at their numbers.  They are very comparable.  Keep in mind, Cody Ellis was open for a lot of threes as a freshman because of the guy down low drawing double teams.  He also was getting kick outs from KM.  He scored more, but shot a worse percent.  There are a lot of Bills since Hughes with as big a first year as Ellis.  Lisch, Liddell, Mitchell, maybe Reed, Evans. That is off the top of my head.

[Soderball]

On 2/16/2017 at 11:24 AM, HoosierPal said:

First, I am sure we can agree that you have more basketball knowledge than anyone on this board, except for perhaps Soderballs.  So for us uneducated MBM's, please interpret these stats from each player's freshman year regarding shooting the three point shot.

Lisch, 140 3's attempted / 58 made / 41.4%

Highmark, 141 / 52 / 36.9%

McCall, 112 / 41 36.6%

Welmer, 75 / 27 / 36.0%

Mitchell 119 / 42 / 35.3%

Loe, 96 / 32 / 33.7%

Claggett 103 / 34 / 33.0%

Ellis 130 / 39 / 30.0%

It is also stipulated that you know more than Coach Ford.  His statement on his Coach's show several weeks ago is that Welmer has very good post moves, but the team has trouble getting him the ball.  You may want to tell Soderballs to correct Coach at his next personal meeting.  And I am sure you know, but have decided it is irrelevant, that Welmer is our second leading rebounder.  Hmmm. 

 

Coach-Speak™

Welmer is pretty damn good on this talent-devoid roster. I fully believe he has a spot on this roster. Don't misunderstand me. He will not be playing the majority of time. He has a lot of application as a niche tall-guy defender and perimeter player to open up the game and create mismatches.

HoosierTroll is desperate for anything that might redeem his boy Jim Crews and his horrifying recruiting record. No matter how any of these guys develop, Jim Crews will be an abject failure and pariah for ever.

For the record, I hope Welmer develops into the next Larry Bird and is so dominant that he is drafted for the NBA by 2019.

[MusicCityBilliken]

20 hours ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Just look at their numbers.  They are very comparable.  Keep in mind, Cody Ellis was open for a lot of threes as a freshman because of the guy down low drawing double teams.  He also was getting kick outs from KM.  He scored more, but shot a worse percent.  There are a lot of Bills since Hughes with as big a first year as Ellis.  Lisch, Liddell, Mitchell, maybe Reed, Evans. That is off the top of my head.

 

The Incident Year, that was very bad year all around. 

Wasn't Cody getting over mono his sophomore year? That was Conklin's junior year and fortunately he had the 'Conklin Summer'. Also the freshmen that year had a baptism under fire which ended up to be a positive the next 3 years. 

 

[Box and Won]

1 hour ago, tarheelbilliken said:

 

The Incident Year, that was very bad year all around. 

Wasn't Cody getting over mono his sophomore year? That was Conklin's junior year and fortunately he had the 'Conklin Summer'. Also the freshmen that year had a baptism under fire which ended up to be a positive the next 3 years. 

 

I remember him hurting his shoulder against Xavier that year. 

[brianstl]

On 2/16/2017 at 1:45 PM, AnkielBreakers said:

As a freshman, Loe looked like a tall version of Shriek. He got the ball stripped from him almost every time he touched it. He was weak inside.  He had one game where he lit it up from 3 and he shot around 6  three-pointers every game, mostly he was not that impressive from 3.

He developed and improved.  Also, Welmer is more of a cross between Loe and Ellis.  I think he has shown as much or more than both as a first year player.

Didn't he blow some fireworks up in his hand, too?

[slufanskip]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:45 PM, AnkielBreakers said:

As a freshman, Loe looked like a tall version of Shriek. He got the ball stripped from him almost every time he touched it. He was weak inside.  He had one game where he lit it up from 3 and he shot around 6  three-pointers every game, mostly he was not that impressive from 3.

He developed and improved.  Also, Welmer is more of a cross between Loe and Ellis.  I think he has shown as much or more than both as a first year player.

This. Maybe we need to pull up some old threads regarding Loe his frosh year.

[Clock_Tower]

On 2/16/2017 at 11:24 AM, HoosierPal said:

First, I am sure we can agree that you have more basketball knowledge than anyone on this board, except for perhaps Soderballs.  So for us uneducated MBM's, please interpret these stats from each player's freshman year regarding shooting the three point shot.

Lisch, 140 3's attempted / 58 made / 41.4%

Highmark, 141 / 52 / 36.9%

McCall, 112 / 41 36.6%

Welmer, 75 / 27 / 36.0%

Mitchell 119 / 42 / 35.3%

Loe, 96 / 32 / 33.7%

Claggett 103 / 34 / 33.0%

Ellis 130 / 39 / 30.0%

It is also stipulated that you know more than Coach Ford.  His statement on his Coach's show several weeks ago is that Welmer has very good post moves, but the team has trouble getting him the ball.  You may want to tell Soderballs to correct Coach at his next personal meeting.  And I am sure you know, but have decided it is irrelevant, that Welmer is our second leading rebounder.  Hmmm. 

 

Hooz.  Reread my post.  Nowhere do I claim superior knowledge to Coach.  Superior knowledge to you?  Of course, but most of this Board can claim the same so that's no big deal.  Glad to hear that Coach says Welmer has very good post moves because I sure haven't seen them.  Instead, I see a guy who is much more comfortable, on offense, playing on the perimeter than I do in the middle.  Anyway, I get it, you probably were raving about Gillman too after he made a few 3 pointers his Freshman year. 

BTW, will every tall white guy who launches 3 pointers be compared to Rob Loe?  I sure hope not.  Rob Loe was a truly talented player.  His JR year was great and his SR year even better.  As to his Freshman year, yes, he struggled alot, yes he got pushed around on this interior, yes he lacked strength, yes he launched 3 pointers... but he also played hard on the inside and did not back away from contact on the interior.  Unlike Welmer, Loe did not shy away from interior battles while still playing on the perimeter as well.  Loe's negatives had more to do with his lack of strength his Freshman.  When the improved strength and size came, along with increased technique and footwork, Rob Loe became a great player.  Welmer not only lacks the strength (similar to Freshman RL) but also lacks the desire/effort/comfort level to play and defend the interior (unlike Freshman RL) -- and Welmer is much older than Rob Loe having both a extra year of high school plus a redshirt year.  And comparisons to Cody Ellis?  Again, I don't see it.  Cody was always a forward who could rebound and defend on the interior while also being versatile enough to step outside and score.  Welmer appears to be more of a tall guard who likes to shoot from the perimeter but not dribble, pass, etc. like most other guards. 

[jimbofive]

6 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

BTW, will every tall white guy who launches 3 pointers be compared to Rob Loe?  I sure hope not.  Rob Loe was a truly talented player.  His JR year was great and his SR year even better. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Raw Blow fan, but I think the legend is a bit greater than the man.  He averaged 7.3 pts and 3.9 rebs per game over his career on 45% from the field and less than 33% from 3.  Good player, but not a great one.  Welmer is averaging 7.7 and 4.4 his freshman year.  Hitting 45% and 36%.  Sure, he's much older than Raw Blow was as a freshman, but he's doing just fine.

And let's not forget that a true star big man will get you 18 and 10.  That's the ballpark that guys like Foreman, French and Gordon can get you in.

[hsmith19]

17 hours ago, brianstl said:

Didn't he blow some fireworks up in his hand, too?

Pretty sure that was Ellis.

[slufanskip]

12 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Hooz.  Reread my post.  Nowhere do I claim superior knowledge to Coach.  Superior knowledge to you?  Of course, but most of this Board can claim the same so that's no big deal.  Glad to hear that Coach says Welmer has very good post moves because I sure haven't seen them.  Instead, I see a guy who is much more comfortable, on offense, playing on the perimeter than I do in the middle.  Anyway, I get it, you probably were raving about Gillman too after he made a few 3 pointers his Freshman year. 

BTW, will every tall white guy who launches 3 pointers be compared to Rob Loe?  I sure hope not.  Rob Loe was a truly talented player.  His JR year was great and his SR year even better.  As to his Freshman year, yes, he struggled alot, yes he got pushed around on this interior, yes he lacked strength, yes he launched 3 pointers... but he also played hard on the inside and did not back away from contact on the interior.  Unlike Welmer, Loe did not shy away from interior battles while still playing on the perimeter as well.  Loe's negatives had more to do with his lack of strength his Freshman.  When the improved strength and size came, along with increased technique and footwork, Rob Loe became a great player.  Welmer not only lacks the strength (similar to Freshman RL) but also lacks the desire/effort/comfort level to play and defend the interior (unlike Freshman RL) -- and Welmer is much older than Rob Loe having both a extra year of high school plus a redshirt year.  And comparisons to Cody Ellis?  Again, I don't see it.  Cody was always a forward who could rebound and defend on the interior while also being versatile enough to step outside and score.  Welmer appears to be more of a tall guard who likes to shoot from the perimeter but not dribble, pass, etc. like most other guards. 

Yes, Every big man who plays like a stretch 4 will be compared to Rob Loe. That's kind of the way it works. Will Elliot develop into as good a player as  Rob became? I don't know, but he has as much to offer as a freshman as Rob did. 

[IndianaSaint]

Great job by Coach Ford in getting some wins this rebuilding year. 

[IndianaSaint]

Also great t-shirts at the game Tuesday! thanks Ed Jones!

[IndianaSaint]

On February 18, 2017 at 1:29 AM, Clock_Tower said:

Hooz.  Reread my post.  Nowhere do I claim superior knowledge to Coach.  Superior knowledge to you?  Of course, but most of this Board can claim the same so that's no big deal.  Glad to hear that Coach says Welmer has very good post moves because I sure haven't seen them.  Instead, I see a guy who is much more comfortable, on offense, playing on the perimeter than I do in the middle.  Anyway, I get it, you probably were raving about Gillman too after he made a few 3 pointers his Freshman year. 

BTW, will every tall white guy who launches 3 pointers be compared to Rob Loe?  I sure hope not.  Rob Loe was a truly talented player.  His JR year was great and his SR year even better.  As to his Freshman year, yes, he struggled alot, yes he got pushed around on this interior, yes he lacked strength, yes he launched 3 pointers... but he also played hard on the inside and did not back away from contact on the interior.  Unlike Welmer, Loe did not shy away from interior battles while still playing on the perimeter as well.  Loe's negatives had more to do with his lack of strength his Freshman.  When the improved strength and size came, along with increased technique and footwork, Rob Loe became a great player.  Welmer not only lacks the strength (similar to Freshman RL) but also lacks the desire/effort/comfort level to play and defend the interior (unlike Freshman RL) -- and Welmer is much older than Rob Loe having both a extra year of high school plus a redshirt year.  And comparisons to Cody Ellis?  Again, I don't see it.  Cody was always a forward who could rebound and defend on the interior while also being versatile enough to step outside and score.  Welmer appears to be more of a tall guard who likes to shoot from the perimeter but not dribble, pass, etc. like most other guards. 

I'm curious if you think that EW just goes out on the floor and does whatever he feels like doing? He plays where the coaches put him. Desire/effort/comfort level??? puh-leeeese. Watch some film.