2017-2018 Season, A New Hope

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, SShoe said:

I've said this on numerous occasions, but our success next year will be predicated on how good the 3 transfers really are.  If Bess, Foreman, and/or Henriequez don't live up to their billing, we aren't dancing or NITing.  I've been told that coach thinks AH is first-team all-conference material.  Good, because that, along with another all-conference player and a freshman of the year candidate, is what it will take to win 23+ games. 

I also think Welmer, Bishop, Roby, etc are being undervalued as potential bench and role players.  Don't forget, we won 18 straight with Jake Barnett as our 5th starter.  Was he really any better than Davell Roby? I also think Jermaine Bishop could be as good a role player as Austin McBroom(who was on some pretty awful teams himself). 

-I think Jake is undervalued on this board and something has happened to Roby, perhaps injury, and he is not playing great ball so the current version of Roby is not to Jake's level imo

[SShoe]

27 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-I think Jake is undervalued on this board and something has happened to Roby, perhaps injury, and he is not playing great ball so the current version of Roby is not to Jake's level imo

Jake may have been one of those players who did the little things right, but as a senior, he shot 31% from 3 (despite being open a lot!), 58% from the line, and averaged 2.8 rebounds per game in 24 minutes.

This year, Roby is shooting 30% from 3, 66% from the line, and averaging 3.7 boards per game in 30 mpg.  This, while having to play with much worse players. 

He has a tendency to disappear for stretches, but I'd be tempted to take Roby over Jake. 

That said, this isn't the comparison that really matters because it wasn't Jake Barnett that won all those games for us.  Can Henriequez be as good as Jordair? Can Bess be as good as Evans? Can Foreman be as good as Loe? If you get similar levels of production as them, plus Goodwin, French, and Graves, anything you get from Bishop, Welmer, and Roby will just be gravy.

[DoctorB]

interesting thread.  I will say a few things in response:

--I also think many of the guys playing now are being undervalued.  Plus, kids who work hard tend to improve.  Plus, the guys who stick it out will have a full year in the system, as an advantage, and it helps to have them on the practice floor, yelling at the new guys and showing them the ropes.  Plus:  it is far easier to contribute at 5-6 minutes per half, than it is to be asked to play 30-35 minutes per game and be a leading scorer.  The pressure will be off, the guys who return will improve, and we will get minutes next year from at least 3 or 4 of these guys.  I also agree that Roby has better upside than Jake had, and Roby is a pretty good on ball defender too.

--I've heard that at least one and perhaps 2 of the present bench guys will not return, so I think it is fair to say at least one more new name will be added for next season.  I've also heard we have a very strong chance at both Thatch & Torrence Watson for 2018.  But should we take both, or are they so similar that we just take the first to verbal???  Inquiring minds want to know . . . .

--I love the transfers but I also think it might take a part of next year to get the rust off and build a cohesive unit.  Henriquez will immediately score for us, but his game is much different from Jordair.  Bess is much different from Evans, too; but like Evans, a terrific glue guy.  As for Graves: if you have not studied that Youtube on his handles and skill set, take a look.  He is a wiz, and though small, can easily dunk with both hands.  Dropping out of BC after only 4 months sends all the wrong signals, but that could be an old'school red flag and granted, the game has really changed in the past years, so who knows???    Alttogether, what are these guys?? All very, very athletic.  But I think we should wait and see, as far as how competitive we can actually be come Nov.Dec.  It will continue to be a work in progress, and part of the reason I say that is due to my growing concerns about several of the players we now have playing big minutes.

--Someone asked about a rim enforcer/ center.  I just drooled watching the highlights for French, and I also think our best teams 3-4 years ago lacked a true rim enforcer.  Of course we had The Rick coaching;  but this group next year will far surpass those teams, athletic wise.  Foreman is also pretty intimidating, but it appears French has a bigger athletic upside.

[Soderball]

My language on Roby was very hyperbolic and probably uncalled for, my uncontrollable rage when thinking about the failed Crewsplatt regime/nightmare, he who WILL be named,, and not forgotten, whose hallowed failures will always be unfavorably compared to Ekker.

The problem with DR is that he will perform incomprehensible mistakes at random point of the game. sleep walking.

DR needs to hammer double espresso shots before games. Perhaps having a competitive team will not only take pressure off of him, but make him wake up and play harder. I think more could be had out of him, we will see.

He could be a minute-eater next year. I am just so excited to return to competitiveness and the beginning of the Ford era(era defined as whwn a coach's recruits are eating the predominance of minutes, as well as being the focus of the teams' capability)

this current season is still Crewsplatt. the MASSIVE incoming class and likely 5 new starters mean that the Ford era begins this coming November.

[almaman]

This coming April!

[slu72]

It's already begun. We've already written off this season as spring training just to see who we keep on the real team.  

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, SShoe said:

I've said this on numerous occasions, but our success next year will be predicated on how good the 3 transfers really are.  If Bess, Foreman, and/or Henriequez don't live up to their billing, we aren't dancing or NITing.  I've been told that coach thinks AH is first-team all-conference material.  Good, because that, along with another all-conference player and a freshman of the year candidate, is what it will take to win 23+ games. 

 

SShoe, here is a serious question.  (I'll ignore Soderball's passionate flame throwing.)  Exactly what are the 'billings' for these three, and who was the author of the billings.  I look at numbers to tell me the story.  Each of these three have two years of stats.  So these numbers should be the baseline with the arrows hopefully pointing up.  Here is what the numbers say.

Bess, 44% shooter, 18% behind the arc, 53% FT, average of 2.9 ppg, 2.5 boards, and 0.8 assists per game.  It was Ohio U or SLU when he transferred.  Not sure what 'glue guy' means. 

Foreman, 46% shooter, 53% FT, 5.9 ppg average, 24 career blocks, and 4.3 rebounds per game.  Similar numbers to Agbeko. 

Henriquez, 41% shooter, 38% 3 pointer, 73% FT, 10.4 ppg, 3.2 boards per game, and 2.0 assists per game. Certainly will be a threat from outside.

[SShoe]

11 minutes ago, slu72 said:

It's already begun. We've already written off this season as spring training just to see who we keep on the real team.  

Ha, that began back in October.

[SShoe]

20 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

SShoe, here is a serious question.  (I'll ignore Soderball's passionate flame throwing.)  Exactly what are the 'billings' for these three, and who was the author of the billings.  I look at numbers to tell me the story.  Each of these three have two years of stats.  So these numbers should be the baseline with the arrows hopefully pointing up.  Here is what the numbers say.

Bess, 44% shooter, 18% behind the arc, 53% FT, average of 2.9 ppg, 2.5 boards, and 0.8 assists per game.  It was Ohio U or SLU when he transferred.  Not sure what 'glue guy' means. 

Foreman, 46% shooter, 53% FT, 5.9 ppg average, 24 career blocks, and 4.3 rebounds per game.  Similar numbers to Agbeko. 

Henriquez, 41% shooter, 38% 3 pointer, 73% FT, 10.4 ppg, 3.2 boards per game, and 2.0 assists per game. Certainly will be a threat from outside.

Oh, it's partially our billing.  But all 3 players were 3 and 4 star recruits coming out of high school and the arrow is pushing up on those stats.  Foreman, for example, averaged 8 and 6 last year as a sophomore in one of the top conferences in the country.  Bess was squeezed out of the rotation on one of the best teams in the country, but averaged closer to 6 ppg in games he played more than 20 minutes. I've also been told on multiple occasions by people inside or close to the program that these 3 would be our best players this season and it's not even be close.

People ask me all the time how good we'll be next season and I honestly say I don't know because I've never watched these guys play for extended periods of time.  But I am expecting the team to be A LOT better next year. I also think Welmer, Bishop, and Roby will have roles.  

[Cowboy]

2 minutes ago, SShoe said:

 I've also been told on multiple occasions by people inside or close to the program that these 3 would be our best players this season and it's not even be close.

-seems we've heard something similar in recent years.....but I do share your optimism on the transfers

 

[SShoe]

18 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

22 minutes ago, SShoe said:

 I've also been told on multiple occasions by people inside or close to the program that these 3 would be our best players this season and it's not even be close.

-seems we've heard something similar in recent years.....but I do share your optimism on the transfers

 

Agreed, which is why I can't for sure say how much better this team will be.  I think you can probably put Henriquez and Foreman down as being productive (stats show that), with Bess being more of a wild-card. But I think you need Henriquez to be more a 14 ppg scorer than 10 and Foreman to be a 12 and 8 guy.

In many ways, Goodwin is the biggest given of all the new players since we've all seen him the most.  I think he'll push for A-10 ROY, but that alone won't be enough to push us into bubble territory.

[HoosierPal]

1 minute ago, SShoe said:

Agreed, which is why I can't for sure say how much better this team will be.  I think you can probably put Henriquez and Foreman down as being productive (stats show that), with Bess being more of a wild-card. But I think you need Henriquez to be more a 14 ppg scorer than 10 and Foreman to be a 12 and 8 guy.

In many ways, Goodwin is the biggest given of all the new players since we've all seen him the most and I think he'll push for A-10 ROY. But that alone won't be enough to push us into bubble territory.

Thanks. Agree with what you and Cowboy have said.  Yacoubou, McBroom, Lancona, Barnett, etc., were are 'billed' as solid game changers.  That is the problem with transfers.  Every transfer coming in is a highlight film while every transfer going out is a wasted scholarship.

I too think the development of the freshmen, and you almost have to include Carter in the group of freshman, will play a large role in the angle of the up arrow next year.

[SShoe]

35 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Thanks. Agree with what you and Cowboy have said.  Yacoubou, McBroom, Lancona, Barnett, etc., were are 'billed' as solid game changers.  That is the problem with transfers.  Every transfer coming in is a highlight film while every transfer going out is a wasted scholarship.

I too think the development of the freshmen, and you almost have to include Carter in the group of freshman, will play a large role in the angle of the up arrow next year.

Lancona was recruited out of high school.

There was plenty of hype surrounding Ash and Jake (due to Rick's hyperbole about him), but I don't recall much hype for McBroom. In the end, I think all 3 of these guys were OK players (Ash was the best of them).  Ash also would've been great as the 4th or 5th option, but he had to be THE GUY and wasn't good enough for that. Barnett was the 5th starter on an NCAA tournament team, while McBroom played a significant bench role all year. We just need these guys to be more than that and I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the current group will be better. 

[Glorydays2013]

33 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Yacoubou

I think we can all agree that Ash was given a short end of the stick having to play with a very under-talented team. Who knows how far we could have gone with him in the 2013-14 season

[cgeldmacher]

I am ecstatic about Ford's recruiting so far.  However, we need to temper our expectations until we see what we have.  Remember this, we all got excited about Crewsplatt's recruits as well.  Let's see what we have first before predicting that we will be dancing.  If these guys are going to be as good as advertised, it would be better for them to come in minus any lofty expectations anyway.

[HoosierPal]

21 minutes ago, SShoe said:

Lancona was recruited out of high school.

There was plenty of hype surrounding Ash and Jake (due to Rick's hyperbole about him), but I don't recall much hype for McBroom. In the end, I think all 3 of these guys were OK players (Ash was the best of them).  Ash also would've been great as the 4th or 5th option, but he had to be THE GUY and wasn't good enough for that. Barnett was the 5th starter on an NCAA tournament team, while McBroom played a significant bench role all year. We just need these guys to be more than that and I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the current group will be better. 

You are right on Lancona.  He signed a LOI with Washington State but was released prior to starting school in somewhat of a controversy between his Dad and the WSU Coach.  So not exactly a straight up HS, not a transfer, just a 'Lancona'.  McBroom came in as a double digit scorer from Central Michigan and was on the MAC All Freshman team.

[slufan13]

I am excited about Goodwin, French, and Henriquez. I don't think the other guys are program changers but I've been told by someone within the program that they are obvious upgrades on our current roster. Welmer, Roby, Moore, Johnson, and Bishop should provide nice depth in limited roles. Welmer will likely be counted on to do the most out of that group and while I think he can easily be upgraded, I think he will be a nice piece going forward. 

[SShoe]

13 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

You are right on Lancona.  He signed a LOI with Washington State but was released prior to starting school in somewhat of a controversy between his Dad and the WSU Coach.  So not exactly a straight up HS, not a transfer, just a 'Lancona'.  McBroom came in as a double digit scorer from Central Michigan and was on the MAC All Freshman team.

Which is why he is comparable to Bishop--double-digit scorer and A-10 All Freshman on a terrible team.

[slufanskip]

4 hours ago, Billiken Rich said:

Wasn't it Otto Van Bismark who said "Winning isn't the only thing, it's everything"  Easy to get these guys mixed up.....

Ummmmm ... Vince Lombardi. And I think the quote as it's generally spoken is a little off. Kind of like the line "Play it again Sam" I don't remember the exact quote though.

Well, a quick google search says Lombardi is wrongly credited with the quote ... It was supposedly Red Sanders a UCLA Bruin football coach who said it originally in 1949. Damn, I hate when I'm wrong

[slufan13]

10 minutes ago, SShoe said:

Which is why he is comparable to Bishop--double-digit scorer and A-10 All Freshman on a terrible team.

I think it's a good comparison. People don't like it because McBroom was a d!ck but if Bishop could be McBroom next year, we will be just fine. 

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, slufan13 said:

I am excited about Goodwin, French, and Henriquez. I don't think the other guys are program changers but I've been told by someone within the program that they are obvious upgrades on our current roster. Welmer, Roby, Moore, Johnson, and Bishop should provide nice depth in limited roles. Welmer will likely be counted on to do the most out of that group and while I think he can easily be upgraded, I think he will be a nice piece going forward. 

-Foreman averaged 8 and 6 at Rutgers and his conf average was very close to this so he performed against Big 10 competition, I am excited to see what he can do for us over his two years

[Billikenbooster]

Vince Lombardi

[slufanskip]

1 hour ago, Billikenbooster said:

Vince Lombardi

Read my post above. I thought the same and was wrong.

[HoosierBilliken]

5 hours ago, slufanskip said:

... It was supposedly Red Sanders a UCLA Bruin football coach who said it originally in 1949. Damn, I hate when I'm wrong

Wrong again, according to the St. Louis Post Dispatch sports section it was Matt Dickey.

[TheChosenOne]

6 hours ago, SShoe said:

People ask me all the time how good we'll be next season and I honestly say I don't know because I've never watched these guys play for extended periods of time.  But I am expecting the team to be A LOT better next year. I also think Welmer, Bishop, and Roby will have roles.  

This. I know the talent on the roster will be much improved, but I have no idea how good any of these kids are individually or how they will play together. I guess we know that the floor and ceiling for the team are both much higher next season.