Ford Hints at New Starting Lineup

[TheChosenOne]

1 hour ago, slufan13 said:

It'll be a tough balance to develop the players and still try to put together wins

True. But how many guys are we talking about needing to get more playing time for? I think we are just talking about getting a few more minutes for two kids in Johnson and Moore, so you just need to scale back some of the minutes from our starters which likely needs to happen regardless (Crawford-32.3 mpg, Bishop-30.8, Roby-30.2, Reggie-29.7, and Welmer-26.7). We have no depth at all, so there aren't many options.

[RUBillsFan]

18 hours ago, cheeseman said:

If this season is going to be a lost one then I kind of agree with you.  Think about what happened to Cassidy his senior year - worked out best for the team long term also.

I'm not sure that Cassity is a perfect example.  When SLU was awful during "the situation" year Cassity (a junior) actually played a lot (so did freshmen McCall and Jett).  Then Cassity's senior year with Kwamain back, Cassity's minutes took a big hit because he was basically the 4th best guard on the team and we had a better option at the 3 with Evans.  That team was actually really good and made the NCAAs, so if Cassity gave them the best chance to win he would have played more regardless of it being his last year.

There aren't exactly any sophomore year McCall, Jett, or Evans or junior year Kwamain players on this team that should be getting minutes above Crawford, but we are awful and Crawford won't be around next year, so maybe you give some of his minutes to a younger guy to build for the future.

[brianstl]

You have to try to win as many games as you can at this point. This isn't pro sports where tanking gets you a better draft position.   A single digit season could really hurt us on the recruiting trail.

[Old guy]

The problem with this discussion is that every point of view is right. Brianstl is correct in terms of the recruiting impact, and RUBillsFan is also correct from the point of view of development. We need to win some games and we need to develop Jalen and Zeke. It is difficult to see how this can be achieved. It is also good test to see what Ford is capable of doing with this team.

[bauman]

22 minutes ago, Old guy said:

The problem with this discussion is that every point of view is right. Brianstl is correct in terms of the recruiting impact, and RUBillsFan is also correct from the point of view of development. We need to win some games and we need to develop Jalen and Zeke. It is difficult to see how this can be achieved. It is also good test to see what Ford is capable of doing with this team.

Rick M couldn't coach this team to a .500 record.

I agree that MC's minutes need to come down, unless he can start hitting 3s at a reasonable rate.  Also. JJ and ZM need to get a few more minutes per game-other than that I don't see what can be done to both improve this year,  while at the same time, help build for the future.  Only 5 players on this team will get any time next year---ZM, JJ, EW, DR and JB. and that's if all of them return.  MN has to transfer, AG needs to graduate and AH needs to get on a Rec Ctr team.

 

So far, I like what I see in Coach Ford.  Not afraid to press or play zone and he can't fix the horrible shooting, both from the field and the FT line. 

[cheeseman]

55 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

I'm not sure that Cassity is a perfect example.  When SLU was awful during "the situation" year Cassity (a junior) actually played a lot (so did freshmen McCall and Jett).  Then Cassity's senior year with Kwamain back, Cassity's minutes took a big hit because he was basically the 4th best guard on the team and we had a better option at the 3 with Evans.  That team was actually really good and made the NCAAs, so if Cassity gave them the best chance to win he would have played more regardless of it being his last year.

There aren't exactly any sophomore year McCall, Jett, or Evans or junior year Kwamain players on this team that should be getting minutes above Crawford, but we are awful and Crawford won't be around next year, so maybe you give some of his minutes to a younger guy to build for the future.

Cassity was benched his senior year - not at the beginning but the second half.  That gave more playing time to the younger guards - that was my point.

[RUBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Cassity was benched his senior year - not at the beginning but the second half.  That gave more playing time to the younger guards - that was my point.

But we had guards who were actually better than him and the team was good, it is not an apples to apples comparison with Crawford.

[cheeseman]

1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

But we had guards who were actually better than him and the team was good, it is not an apples to apples comparison with Crawford.

So what you are saying is that we have no one on the team who could do what Crawford has done so far this year - not sure I agree and I do think it was an apples to apples comparison.

[kmbilliken]

The players have to earn their minutes. The players that give you the best chance to win should play, regardless of what year they are. you have to develope a winning culture. You do that by trying to win every game. If we've got players that can't earn minutes this year, how good can they be?

[hsmith19]

He's clearly not right. His strength has always been three point shooting and offensive efficiency in general, but he's been one of the very worst on the team in those categories so far. If there is a point in giving him 30+ minutes right now, I'd love to hear what it is.

[cgeldmacher]

I'm a firm believer in the idea that players can develop just as well from watching on the bench as they can getting thrown into a bad situation.  I don't want to discount the value of playing, but I also don't think we should discount the idea of learning from the sidelines and not being thrown into a situation set up for failure.

Right now, I say go for wins.  I agree with Brian.  Showing recruits that we're not a total Crews style trainwreck under Ford has more value than the little bit of development the freshmen could get right now.

[brianstl]

5 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

He's clearly not right. His strength has always been three point shooting and offensive efficiency in general, but he's been one of the very worst on the team in those categories so far. If there is a point in giving him 30+ minutes right now, I'd love to hear what it is.

Plus minus numbers for the starters over the last 3 games

Bishop -38

Welmer -32

Roby -29

Crawford -21

Agbeko -21

 

Look, I think Crawford should see his minutes cut back some.  He just isn't close to the biggest problem on this team over this three game losing streak.  The team needs to win some games to avoid a season that would really hamper Ford on the recruiting trail.  Having Crawford and Reggie on the court gives Ford a chance to win more games.

 

[RUBillsFan]

34 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

So what you are saying is that we have no one on the team who could do what Crawford has done so far this year - not sure I agree and I do think it was an apples to apples comparison.

How is it apples to apples?  Cassity had guards who were irrefutably better than him take his minutes on an NCAA bound team (and one that had quite a bit of depth).  None of the other guards this year are irrefutably better than Crawford, they are all still getting decent minutes because we have no depth, and this season appears to be a total train wreck.  The only think apples to apples about it is that Cassity and Crawford both begin with the letter C and have a light skin pigmentation.

You could also make the argument that seems to have some traction given the plus-minus that without Crawford out there, our team is struggling even more.  Having young guys play alongside Crawford who might understand the game better is more beneficial for them learning than throwing a bunch of guys out there who have little or no clue.  It worked for Jett, McCall, etc. because they still had Kwamain & Conklin playing with them.

I have no idea what is actually the best bet going forward regarding Crawford's minutes, but I do know that his situation does not compare with Cassity's.

[slufan13]

I do think all of our starting guards should see their minutes cut. It's just not sustainable (and maybe Ford is fine with this because by February, the frosh will be more ready). For me it's all about lineup combinations. I like Moore and Johnson but neither have a great grasp of what to do on offense. There are times where Johnson literally has to be told exactly where to go the entire possession. Combine that with Bishop who has had more of a scorer's mentality than a creating mentality and all of a sudden our offense gets even worse. You just need multiple upperclassmen with experience out there at basically all times at the current moment. I would hope that would change by February. 

[moytoy12]

I'm not saying he is the answer by any stretch, but is Hines as bad as people are making him out to be?  Last year, I was really tough on Hines, but this season i just don't see a precipitous drop off in play between he and JB. Now, that's not necessarily a glowing endorsement.

 

 

[slufan13]

Just now, moytoy12 said:

I'm not saying he is the answer by any stretch, but is Hines as bad as people are making him out to be?  Last year, I was really tough on Hines, but this season i just don't see a precipitous drop off in play between he and JB. Now, that's not necessarily a glowing endorsement.

Hines looks quick, athletic, and wiling to create one game and then he looks like an undersized walk-on in the next. I really don't know what to think of him. Obviously he's not a very good player, but there are times where he runs the offense decently. 

[cheeseman]

12 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

How is it apples to apples?  Cassity had guards who were irrefutably better than him take his minutes on an NCAA bound team (and one that had quite a bit of depth).  None of the other guards this year are irrefutably better than Crawford, they are all still getting decent minutes because we have no depth, and this season appears to be a total train wreck.  The only think apples to apples about it is that Cassity and Crawford both begin with the letter C and have a light skin pigmentation.

You could also make the argument that seems to have some traction given the plus-minus that without Crawford out there, our team is struggling even more.  Having young guys play alongside Crawford who might understand the game better is more beneficial for them learning than throwing a bunch of guys out there who have little or no clue.  It worked for Jett, McCall, etc. because they still had Kwamain & Conklin playing with them.

I have no idea what is actually the best bet going forward regarding Crawford's minutes, but I do know that his situation does not compare with Cassity's.

You are right - Crawford is not a guard but that has nothing to do with the concept of cutting time for a senior who is not performing well and giving it to an underclassman who could develop from the experience for the future.  If you are having trouble understanding this then there is no point in carrying out this discourse.

[Old guy]

I am not a basketball technician as you all know, but couldn't we improve our chance of winning some games by just getting better with the  Free Throws? That is not rocket science and does not appear to require much talent or athleticism either, why are we so bad a it?

[Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, Old guy said:

I am not a basketball technician as you all know, but couldn't we improve our chance of winning some games by just getting better with the  Free Throws? That is not rocket science and does not appear to require much talent or athleticism either, why are we so bad a it?

-if that answer was known every team would shoot 90%

[Glorydays2013]

Can anyone argue that Johnson needs way more time on the floor? I would say he has the most points per time on court from what I've seen from watching him. He can be someone who can develop greatly

[HoosierPal]

This is MMQB, but Ford left the starters in too long in the second half against Samford.  Sure, they brought us back.  But at the end of the game the price had been paid.  Reggie went 36 minutes, Crawford 38 and Bishop 32.  Reggie in particular was a step slow in the last 10 min.  Walker picked him apart.  A 2 minute blow earlier in the second half might have been enough to keep him at first half performance.  Tired legs = missed free throws. Best way to practice FT's is after running hard in practice. 

[Pistol]

43 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

I'm not saying he is the answer by any stretch, but is Hines as bad as people are making him out to be?  Last year, I was really tough on Hines, but this season i just don't see a precipitous drop off in play between he and JB. Now, that's not necessarily a glowing endorsement.

Hines' point production on a per-minute basis isn't bad in comparison to others - he's behind Bishop but ahead of Crawford - but there are some glaring statistical cases against Hines, too:

-His plus/minus is a staggering -43 in 62 minutes played. That's worst on the team, and it took him fewer minutes to get there than others.

-He only has 2 assists this season, good for 0.3 per game and 1.3 per 40 minutes played. Not good for a ballhandler.

-Compare that to 4.5 turnovers per 40 minutes. He's actually comparable with Bishop (4.7) in this measure. This is really the best case Hines has, that Bishop also isn't taking care of the ball well, and that Hines' shooting percentage is better. The difference is that Bishop is contributing assists and steals.

[HoosierPal]

5 minutes ago, Glorydays2013 said:

Can anyone argue that Johnson needs way more time on the floor? I would say he has the most points per time on court from what I've seen from watching him. He can be someone who can develop greatly

Johnson currently leads the team in points per minute, at .474. Roby follows at .403, then Bishop .395 and Agbeko .393.  Of our first 8 rotation players, Moore trails at 0.231. 

[bonwich]

To remind everyone of the words in our sacred Scriptures: "Starting is for high school." 

[hsmith19]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

Plus minus numbers for the starters over the last 3 games

Bishop -38

Welmer -32

Roby -29

Crawford -21

Agbeko -21

 

Look, I think Crawford should see his minutes cut back some.  He just isn't close to the biggest problem on this team over this three game losing streak.  The team needs to win some games to avoid a season that would really hamper Ford on the recruiting trail.  Having Crawford and Reggie on the court gives Ford a chance to win more games.

 

Given there have only been six games and we trailed even the two terrible teams we ended up beating, I don't think it makes much sense to focus on just the last three losses. And this is obviously just a bad team period, but the minutes Crawford has seen and the volume of shots he's taken is clearly one of the biggest problems so far if you're going to start pointing fingers in different directions.

People keep saying playing Crawford gives us a chance to win, but how? He's not making shots, and it's not like he's been lighting it up on defense either. Reggie isn't a world beater, but he's not playing hurt and there are no real alternatives. Crawford is playing like a shadow of himself and Johnson and Moore are alternatives.