Great opportunity for SLU

[kshoe]

4 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

Similarly, jumping to the conclusion that I'm implying the Cardinals are now facing their demise because they are no longer the best team in the NL Central is a bit of an exaggeration. 

Didn't you start this thread with a post that stated " the increasing likelihood that the Cardinals will have to completely overhaul their roster over the next 3-5 years" 

 

Seems to me that you are definitely implying their demise with that one.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

The Cardinals had over 130 different line ups this past year and only missed the wild card by 1 spot. You see, 3-5 years means 3 to 5 years. So, over the next 3-5 years, they will need to find: a CF, a LF, at least 2-3 SPs, a 1B and a closer. And if Wong continues his current trend, a 2B.  That is almost half of their starting line up and at least 40% of their starting pitching.  Pray tell, in what universe would this not be considered to be a rebuild? What is missing from that quote, is where I say the Cardinals will be bottom dwellers during this time. Also missing...where I say this will occur in 1 off season. 

[Slu let the dogs out?]

14 minutes ago, kshoe said:

Didn't you start this thread with a post that stated " the increasing likelihood that the Cardinals will have to completely overhaul their roster over the next 3-5 years" 

 

Seems to me that you are definitely implying their demise with that one.

No I know that is what you assume. You've been doing a lot of that.

[hsmith19]

17 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

Similarly, jumping to the conclusion that I'm implying the Cardinals are now facing their demise because they are no longer the best team in the NL Central is a bit of an exaggeration. 

They weren't the best team in the Central this year. Not much to debate there. We'll see what happens next year, but I don't think the difference between a 100 win Cardinals team and an 86 win Cardinals team will have much of an effect on support for SLU basketball. That's all I'm saying.

[hsmith19]

1 minute ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

The Cardinals had over 130 different line ups this past year and only missed the wild card by 1 spot. You see, 3-5 years means 3 to 5 years. So, over the next 3-5 years, they will need to find: a CF, a LF, at least 2-3 SPs, a 1B and a closer. And if Wong continues his current trend, a 2B. That is almost half of their starting line up and at least 40% of their starting pitching.  Pray tell, in what universe would this not be considered to be a rebuild? What is missing from that quote, is where I say the Cardinals will be bottom dwellers during this time.

They had 146 different lineup combinations this year. 135 last year when they won 100 games. La Russa's teams were usually in that range too, so I don't think it tells you much. And right now they have an overabundance of starting pitching options. Not sure why you think they need 2-3 more. They can hopefully use one or two of the extra arms to add an outfielder. They've also got a bunch of infield options; the only real question there is which one lands on 1B.

You've said Cardinal fans are insecure, and I'd say panicking over the Cubs like you're doing here is pretty good evidence of that.

[brianstl]

22 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

The only problem with this line of reasoning is that the Billikens got really good and attendance spiked right as the NFL was coming back--the push to get the Dome built, the failed Stallions bid, the Frontiere announcement. The Spoonhour peak did not coincide with the years between the Cardinals and Rams. Most of the years without football ('88-'94) were pretty dark ones for the Billikens.

Actually the attendance started picking up in 88.  It increased every year after that.  In 88 we averaged 5,700 and by 94 we more than doubled that.  Those years were not all that dark either. Not saying they were great, but it definitely wasn't dark.  We had one trip to the NCAA tournament and two trips to the NIT Finals.  We had an average record of 17-14.  We had two really bad seasons, but other than that their was some pretty decent basketball played during that time period.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

6 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

They weren't the best team in the Central this year. Not much to debate there. We'll see what happens next year, but I don't think the difference between a 100 win Cardinals team and an 86 win Cardinals team will have much of an effect on support for SLU basketball. That's all I'm saying.

I'm with you on that. I just think it will be interesting to see what happens if SLU can snag top 100 recruits over the next few years and how that will translate on the court. That's all! Let's just get this out of the way: SLU basketball will have zero effect on the Cardinals attendance or popularity! I  know that

[Slu let the dogs out?]

6 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

They had 146 different lineup combinations this year. 135 last year when they won 100 games. La Russa's teams were usually in that range too, so I don't think it tells you much. And right now they have an overabundance of starting pitching options. Not sure why you think they need 2-3 more. They can hopefully use one or two of the extra arms to add an outfielder. They've also got a bunch of infield options; the only real question there is which one lands on 1B.

You've said Cardinal fans are insecure, and I'd say panicking over the Cubs like you're doing here is pretty good evidence of that.

Ha, I'm not panicking over the Cubs. I'm looking at their position players, their ages, their current contracts, and the numbers they produced this year and deduced that based on these numbers, the Cubs aren't going anywhere for a while. Now, I will say that injuries are a big part of the game and you are right....there certainly is no guarantee the Cubs will continue this type of play into the future.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

7 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

They had 146 different lineup combinations this year. 135 last year when they won 100 games. La Russa's teams were usually in that range too, so I don't think it tells you much. And right now they have an overabundance of starting pitching options. Not sure why you think they need 2-3 more. They can hopefully use one or two of the extra arms to add an outfielder. They've also got a bunch of infield options; the only real question there is which one lands on 1B.

You've said Cardinal fans are insecure, and I'd say panicking over the Cubs like you're doing here is pretty good evidence of that.

I'd say 3 years from now, the only certainties at SP are: Leake (unless someone wants his contract), Reyes, and Martinez. Of course they have an overabundance of SP options but as we know, you can never have too much SP and it doesn't always work out. Not sold on Gonzalez, Lynn (health), Garcia (health), Wacha (health) or Weaver yet.

[hsmith19]

3 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Actually the attendance started picking up in 88.  It increased every year after that.  In 88 we averaged 5,700 and by 94 we more than doubled that.  Those years were not all that dark either. Not saying they were great, but it definitely wasn't dark.  We had one trip to the NCAA tournament and two trips to the NIT Finals.  We had an average record of 17-14.  We had two really bad seasons, but other than that their was some pretty decent basketball played during that time period.

The original post only showed attendance back to '92 and showed the huge spike came between '93-'94. That huge spike clearly had more to do with the team getting really good than it did football leaving six years earlier.

I agree the Bonner years were pretty good, even though I can barely remember them. But unless there was a similar huge spike in attendance in '88, then none of this really supports the idea that football has this huge effect on SLU attendance.

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

So, let me present a scenario. St. Louis loses a football team.  A short time later, SLU hires a new coach that brings a lot of excitement to the program.  He starts recruiting some top local kids and combines them with recruits from around the country.  I'm not describing the Rams leaving and SLU hiring Ford, even though it sounds very familiar.  I'm talking about the football Cardinals leaving and SLU hiring Charlie Spoonhour.

To answer "SLU Let the Dogs Out's" question, here is what happened in the 1990s after the football Cardinals left in the late 80s. [the numbers given on the NCAA website only state attendance per year, not per season.  Not sure what exactly that means]

SLU 1992 average attendance - 7,697 (#64 in the nation)

SLU 1993 average attendance - 8,591 (#51 in the nation)

SLU 1994 average attendance - 13,008 (#24 in the nation)

SLU 1995 average attendance - 17,714 (#7 in the nation)

SLU 1996 average attendance - 16,986 (#7 in the nation)

I've always been of the opinion that St. Louis has room to support the three teams.  The Cardinals will always be one.  Then there's always a team that catches St. Louis's attention for several years.  The third team will typically get average support.

Over the years, that second team that gets great support in addition to the baseball Cardinals has changed.  It has been the Blues, the Rams, SLU Basketball, the Steamers.  If Ford starts putting together winning seasons with local talent, SLU will be that second favorite team in STL.

actually spoon's local players were recruited by grawer.  spoon gets credit for brining in H, campbell and robinson, etc.   hughes and his class with a few locals didnt get to slu till the 97-98 season which was still stellar attendance, but it was after your example.  

[brianstl]

3 minutes ago, hsmith19 said:

The original post only showed attendance back to '92 and showed the huge spike came between '93-'94. That huge spike clearly had more to do with the team getting really good than it did football leaving six years earlier.

I agree the Bonner years were pretty good, even though I can barely remember them. But unless there was a similar huge spike in attendance in '88, then none of this really supports the idea that football has this huge effect on SLU attendance.

The huge spike is never going to come the first year.  First people need to start missing what they had and then you have to show them that you are an an attractive alternative.  It is a gradual process.

[wgstl]

37 minutes ago, kshoe said:

BFIB is more a media thing than an actual fan thing, but whatever.

 

Exactly. 

 

I'm not worried about attendance.  Just need to start winning games. 

[Slu let the dogs out?]

4 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Exactly. 

 

I'm not worried about attendance.  Just need to start winning games. 

You honestly don't think the media's BFIB label has had any effect on how Cardinals fans act? I've seen it firsthand, especially at Dodger Stadium, Petco, whatever stadium the DBacks play in now, Kauffman, etc. Heck, I've heard fans yell it!

[brianstl]

Just now, Slu let the dogs out? said:

You honestly don't think the media's BFIB label has had any effect on how Cardinals fans act? I've seen it firsthand, especially at Dodger Stadium, Petco, whatever stadium the DBacks play in now, Kauffman, etc. Heck, I've heard fans yell it!

Just wait until you have to deal with Cub fans this season.  They will quickly become the most hated fan base in baseball.

[ACE]

Keep in mind when looking at attendance figures, it has been dwindling across college basketball each year for the last seven seasons. But in SLU-world, I expect a decent uptick next year and an even bigger one the year after that.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

6 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Just wait until you have to deal with Cub fans this season.  They will quickly become the most hated fan base in baseball.

Blackhawks fans are already the most insufferable fans on earth. It's unreal. None of them even knew what hockey was before 2009.

[kshoe]

3 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Just wait until you have to deal with Cub fans this season.  They will quickly become the most hated fan base in baseball.

+ 1. It's the one silver lining in them winning. America will hate them soon enough.

[hsmith19]

12 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The huge spike is never going to come the first year.  First people need to start missing what they had and then you have to show them that you are an an attractive alternative.  It is a gradual process.

Sure, whatever process there was in the '90s was definitely gradual. I'd say correlation doesn't = causation, but at this point I'm not even sure there's correlation between Spoonball and football.

[hsmith19]

5 minutes ago, kshoe said:

+ 1. It's the one silver lining in them winning. America will hate them soon enough.

They're just another team for me now. I rooted against them because I didn't want to see a really cool streak go down the drain. Now that it's gone they might as well be the Reds or the Pirates as far as I'm concerned.

[3star_recruit]

In a city where the most popular question is "where did you go to high school", having all conference caliber players from St Louis lead your team to the Dance is a big fuggin deal.  I still remember how the community started to rally around the team after Lisch and Liddell's freshman season.  The enthusiasm at the Midnight Madness was palpable. They just never had the supporting cast to take us to the next level.

Goodwin, Gordon and possibly Watson taking the Billikens dancing would be the hottest ticket in town.

[Bobby Metzinger]

On 11/3/2016 at 2:25 PM, Slu let the dogs out? said:

I agree. Let's be honest, OSU is in a tough conference but also a conference where football comes first (outside of Lawrence).

If you watched any of the OU/Iowa State game, I'd say Ames is another place where they're counting the weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds until Cyclone hoops.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

4 minutes ago, Bobby Metzinger said:

If you watched any of the OU/Iowa State game, I'd say Ames is another place where they're counting the weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds until Cyclone hoops.

Ha, funny enough, I started typing ISU but then decided to erase it for some reason.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I also don't see the corollary between the NFL Cardinals/Rams leaving and SLU attendance figures. Unless our precise game times were conflicts, there shouldn't have been an issue. It's not like the NFL Cardinals/Rams (post-GSOT) were playing deep into Jan-Feb-Mar, nor (for example) would they play on a Wednesday night in December.

[Slu let the dogs out?]

15 minutes ago, Bobby Metzinger said:

I also don't see the corollary between the NFL Cardinals/Rams leaving and SLU attendance figures. Unless our precise game times were conflicts, there shouldn't have been an issue. It's not like the NFL Cardinals/Rams (post-GSOT) were playing deep into Jan-Feb-Mar, nor (for example) would they play on a Wednesday night in December.

I wasn't suggesting there were any correlations. I'm not saying: "Now that the Rams are gone and the Cardinals are entering their demise (I kid KSHOE), It will have a direct impact on  SLU and every game will be sold out!" If Ford continues to attract top recruits and it translates to not just winning basketball but entertaining basketball, Chaifetz will sell out and be rocking! That will take care of itself.

What I'm asking, is if people think the there is an opportunity for SLU to take advantage of a few things:

1) the NFL leaving town - I'm not saying Rams fans will now all of a sudden attend SLU games. There is space in the sports section to fill now that the NFL is gone.

2) The possibility (not certainty) that the Cardinals have a few off years. Again, I'm not saying the Cardinals will or that it will have an impact on their attendance. Yes, the Cardinals will always be the media darlings of STL and their attendance won't suffer terribly if they have an off year or two.

When I say take advantage, I mostly mean in terms of media coverage and general excitement in the STL metro, (especially with top area recruits staying home to play for the Billikens) not in terms of attendance. I'm asking if there is an opportunity for the Billikens to parlay this potentially exciting and successful style of basketball into more exposure with the local media and people. Instead of the top Post story in January being "Ranking the Cardinals Bullpen", it is "High-flying Bills top Dayton in match up of two top 15 teams", or something corny like that.

It sounds like many don't see and connection, either direct or indirect, between SLU and the Cardinals and I get that. I was just looking for people's thoughts. Lesson learned!