Coach Ford on Bernie's show 8/3

[cheeseman]

If he can not beat out Gilman and Moore can not find some time on the court then both are not what we hoped for.

[slu72]

Agree on Johnson who appears to have an upside. I'm more curious about  Wellmer. Prior to the Bahama Mama Cruise/Tourney, folks on here were saying he looked better than expected. Now, considering he's a CrewsPlatt guy, that may not be saying much, still I'm looking forward to seeing where he fits into the scheme of things.

I know it's way too early to forecast a starting lineup buy my guess is Bishop-PG, Roby-2, Crawford-3, Agbeko-4, Gillman-5. Not exactly a lineup that'll be sending shivers down opponents' spines, is it?

[hsmith19]

40 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I know it's way too early to forecast a starting lineup buy my guess is Bishop-PG, Roby-2, Crawford-3, Agbeko-4, Gillman-5. Not exactly a lineup that'll be sending shivers down opponents' spines, is it?

I'm looking forward to seeing Crawford, Roby, Bartley, and even Gillmann let it rip from 3P. If Ford really likes shooters as much as everyone says, that lineup should at least be entertaining.

[Taj79]

I too am interested in seeing what a 21- or 22-year-old freshman can bring to the table.  Problem seems twofold:

#1) as you noted, he's a Crewsplatt-rated talent/offer, and

#2) reviews by some of our MBMs tend to lean toward the overly optimistic side of things in the preseason.

What if Welmer is just another Brett Jolly/Austin Gillmann clone?  Fifth-year academy player.  Little to no interest outside us (not that I remember any anyway).  Beanpole and rail thin white post player.  Jacking threes; not banging inside.  No discernible defensive skills.  Gawd I sure hope not but the Crewsplatt track record in this category is not good. 

Given the knowns versus the unknowns, I think I'd rather see Moore or Johnson replacing Roby in your staring five.  And I'll go only so far with Gillmann in hopes that if Gillmann is still Gillmann then I want Neufeld playing to develop or go home.  Inany case, given the dearth of talent on this roster, the playing time islikely to be hodge-podge at best.  Foul trouble, injuries, off nfihts are going to affect us with greater intensity than we can imagine right now.  Crwaford has broken down before.  So too has Bartley.  And Roby.  Bishop now plays the full year, not as a last resort thrown in late.  Agbeko will be our sole point source on the boards.  One stary elbow or misplaced step and high ankle sprain ----- you can talk winning games.  Right now, I'm talking surviving the season.

[RUBillsFan]

On 8/5/2016 at 2:42 PM, billiken_roy said:

Majerus had a bigger hole?   Rickma inherited  a team that had won 20 games and had Lisch and Liddell returning.   

Who is "lisch and liddell" on our current roster?

Crews f'd saint Louis university badly.   Ford inherited the worst roster in my nearly 40 years of following the billikens.  

I guess I didn't word that quite right.  The roster that Ford inherited is pitiful and much worse than the Majerus inherited roster.  Although even with Lisch & Liddell, that roster was not going to make it anywhere.  I meant that the program had been bad / mediocre for much longer and didn't have a 3 year NCAA tournament run in its recent past to help lure recruits.  Therefore, I'd say overall the program is in better shape now than when Majerus stepped in.

[cheeseman]

Surviving the season and showing improvement is a key for this year.  I agree that this year will have plenty of ups and downs.  RA should be better but he has plateau out before during the season and frankly if that happens then sit him and let the younger players have the floor time - same can be said for Crawford's situation.  Neufeld should be getting better - he can't not or else he will not belong in D1 ball.  Gilmann - I have little hope for him making an impact - he could be a guy who comes in and plays a few minutes at a time and hits a 3 now and then to loosen up the paint area but not much else in my opinion right now - prove me wrong Gilmann.  Welmer has to be better than what we had last year - he surely can not be worse.

[ACE]

On 8/6/2016 at 6:39 PM, Clock_Tower said:

RM had more than just the Situation happen which delayed his rebuild of the program.  First, Fr. Biondi waited so long to hire RM that we missed that initial year.  Imagine if Ford were hired too late as well.  In that case, we would have zero help for next year unless Ford could find his version of a walk-on like Paul Eckerle and no top transfers waiting in the wings for next year.  Yes, RM started with TL and KL already on the roster (better than what Ford inherited) but he also couldn't recruit his own guys that whole first year. Second, the transfer option was largely not used by RM (and not initially) due to RM's desire to coach kids for 4 years but that was also b/c such guys would have to sit out his 2nd year of coaching and not play until his 3rd year.  Third, the NCAA's delay in processing Cody Ellis' transcripts had a huge and negative impact for both Cody and the team.  Fourth, no basketball suspensions would have occurred at most NCAA basketball programs, would not have been conducted in such a kangaroo court format and would not have been conducted with punishments levied at such a late date to the detriment of the team, other players and coaching staff.  Fifth, Fr. Biondi's reversal of his promises to RM leading to a public feud sure didn't help the program. 

+1, excellent recap. Because of the odd timing of RM, he didn't have much time to turn over the roster in that first year. Ian had just graduated and outside of TL & KL, there wasn't much else on that roster.  TL & KL were essentially seniors when RM could start adding his own players. The timing of the TF hiring was done much better. Little time wasted and it allowed TF to hit the ground running with recruiting and begin the rebuild.

[Taj79]

The traditional open season on coaches is from right after the end of the conference tournaments to the conclusion of the Final Four.  Most programs know what their needs will be (i.e the Crewsplatt fire) and use the annual Final Four gathering as a way to interview and down select some final choices from perceived rising programs/coaches having success in said tournament (i.e. Florida Gulf Coast, Stephen F. Austin, etc. etc) or other coaching retreads.  When those guys move up (Enfield, Pitino, Underwood), then the little guys look for their next unknown.  The fill there well under the lime light of the so-called big boys.  The Final Four rarely runs longer than the first weekend in April. 

Rick Majerus was not hired until April 27 of 2007, at least two weeks past the prime hiring window.  And under a pretty good cloak of secrecy.   As I recall, Brad Soderberg was coming off a 20-win season, there was a prime list of recruits resting within the St. Louis Eagles, including Brad's kid Kramer, that was seen as his "male or break" recruiting moment.  Then-AD Cheryl Levrick was quite content with the job Soderberg was doing.  The hiring of Majerus was worked behind her back essentially by Chaifetz and company, leading to her resignation when it was all said and done.  Biondi was convinced to hire Majerus and then moved on to hire Chris May to replace the resigned Levrick, hiring May in January of 2008. 

The whole Majerus hiring was one of "bad timing" but essential, in hindsight.  Short of just being convinced hiring Majerus was the thing to do, I do not recall Bionid being a stumbling block.  I could be wrong.  The Biondi troubles began after the Majerus hire, when promises made allegedly were not kept.  I recall Chaifetz and company convincing Majerus first, then Biondi second.  All done without AD input.  No one short of the inner circle knew it was coming.  I remember thinking old alma mater u. blew it again in firing Soderberg –who fires a coach in late April and what’s left out there to replace him with? It was jaw-dropping move, the likes of which SLU had never done before.

[cheeseman]

6 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

The traditional open season on coaches is from right after the end of the conference tournaments to the conclusion of the Final Four.  Most programs know what their needs will be (i.e the Crewsplatt fire) and use the annual Final Four gathering as a way to interview and down select some final choices from perceived rising programs/coaches having success in said tournament (i.e. Florida Gulf Coast, Stephen F. Austin, etc. etc) or other coaching retreads.  When those guys move up (Enfield, Pitino, Underwood), then the little guys look for their next unknown.  The fill there well under the lime light of the so-called big boys.  The Final Four rarely runs longer than the first weekend in April. 

Rick Majerus was not hired until April 27 of 2007, at least two weeks past the prime hiring window.  And under a pretty good cloak of secrecy.   As I recall, Brad Soderberg was coming off a 20-win season, there was a prime list of recruits resting within the St. Louis Eagles, including Brad's kid Kramer, that was seen as his "male or break" recruiting moment.  Then-AD Cheryl Levrick was quite content with the job Soderberg was doing.  The hiring of Majerus was worked behind her back essentially by Chaifetz and company, leading to her resignation when it was all said and done.  Biondi was convinced to hire Majerus and then moved on to hire Chris May to replace the resigned Levrick, hiring May in January of 2008. 

The whole Majerus hiring was one of "bad timing" but essential, in hindsight.  Short of just being convinced hiring Majerus was the thing to do, I do not recall Bionid being a stumbling block.  I could be wrong.  The Biondi troubles began after the Majerus hire, when promises made allegedly were not kept.  I recall Chaifetz and company convincing Majerus first, then Biondi second.  All done without AD input.  No one short of the inner circle knew it was coming.  I remember thinking old alma mater u. blew it again in firing Soderberg –who fires a coach in late April and what’s left out there to replace him with? It was jaw-dropping move, the likes of which SLU had never done before.

 

6 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

The traditional open season on coaches is from right after the end of the conference tournaments to the conclusion of the Final Four.  Most programs know what their needs will be (i.e the Crewsplatt fire) and use the annual Final Four gathering as a way to interview and down select some final choices from perceived rising programs/coaches having success in said tournament (i.e. Florida Gulf Coast, Stephen F. Austin, etc. etc) or other coaching retreads.  When those guys move up (Enfield, Pitino, Underwood), then the little guys look for their next unknown.  The fill there well under the lime light of the so-called big boys.  The Final Four rarely runs longer than the first weekend in April. 

Rick Majerus was not hired until April 27 of 2007, at least two weeks past the prime hiring window.  And under a pretty good cloak of secrecy.   As I recall, Brad Soderberg was coming off a 20-win season, there was a prime list of recruits resting within the St. Louis Eagles, including Brad's kid Kramer, that was seen as his "male or break" recruiting moment.  Then-AD Cheryl Levrick was quite content with the job Soderberg was doing.  The hiring of Majerus was worked behind her back essentially by Chaifetz and company, leading to her resignation when it was all said and done.  Biondi was convinced to hire Majerus and then moved on to hire Chris May to replace the resigned Levrick, hiring May in January of 2008. 

The whole Majerus hiring was one of "bad timing" but essential, in hindsight.  Short of just being convinced hiring Majerus was the thing to do, I do not recall Bionid being a stumbling block.  I could be wrong.  The Biondi troubles began after the Majerus hire, when promises made allegedly were not kept.  I recall Chaifetz and company convincing Majerus first, then Biondi second.  All done without AD input.  No one short of the inner circle knew it was coming.  I remember thinking old alma mater u. blew it again in firing Soderberg –who fires a coach in late April and what’s left out there to replace him with? It was jaw-dropping move, the likes of which SLU had never done before.

Surviving the season and showing improvement is a key for this year.  I agree that this year will have plenty of ups and downs.  RA should be better but he has plateau out before during the season and frankly if that happens then sit him and let the younger players have the floor time - same can be said for Crawford's situation.  Neufeld should be getting better - he can't not or else he will not belong in D1 ball.  Gilmann - I have little hope for him making an impact - he could be a guy who comes in and plays a few minutes at a time and hits a 3 now and then to loosen up the paint area but not much else in my opinion right now - prove me wrong Gilmann.  Welmer has to be better than what we had last year - he surely can not be worse.

[Taj79]

Having said all that, even if the hiring was moved up by those two to three weeks, I sincerely doubt Majerus turns that roster over much.  You’ve already noted Rick’s disdain for the transfer player.  Rick was in the booth for what, two or three years?  So he had no one under his wing in terms of recruits coming with him.  The grad transfer rule wa n ot as prevalent then as it is now.  And if Majerus isn't taking JUCOs, I seriously doubt he uses that option either.  And it has been evident that spring signees are rarely of value at alma mater u so thinking Majerus, after this booth layoff, would have pulled some plums out of thin air is naïve and speculative.  He used that first year for just survival.  Just as Ford must do.  Majerus weeded Brad’s garden of non-talents Mitchell, Knollmeyer and Maguire.  He parted ways with Marcus Relphorde.  He bid a fond adiue to Bryce Husak.  He used Meyer, Brown, Polk and Eberhardt as well he could, getting us to his first major class of six – Mitchell, Reed, Cassity, Conklin, Cotto and Thompson.  Four for six. 

Ford has weeded Crewsplatt's garden.  The landscape of collegiate basketball is somewhat different now than then and the tactics used by the new coaching breed are different than the dinosaurs of the past.  Majerus was a dinosaur --- successful for sure but still a vanishing breed.  Ford seems to have done the right thing in doing all he can now under his power to make next year bearable.  Despite that, I think matching the last two year's win totals will be extremely hard.  The best news is that Crewsplatt is gone and there is perceived hope on the horizon.  I can live with that much this year.

[cheeseman]

Biondi was hot to get RM on the hook.  Once he did, he started dragging his feet regarding the stuff RM wanted and was lead at first to believe he would get.  Biondi finally had to agree - later started to renege on some - due the pressure he was getting once the cat was out of the bag.  Biondi certainly did cause the delay in RM's hiring.

[Old guy]

 The problem with going over and over again whatever happened (or is remembered to have happened) in the past is that the negatives of specific actions are generally forgotten. Soderberg was a good coach with a good winning season, a good pipeline of players and lots of future time to practice his craft. Majerus on the other hand, as great as he was, did not have much time left to go, and with limited time in his hands things could derail his progress, like "the incident" did in fact derail it. We in effect threw the future away in exchange for the present and the past, by hiring Majerus. Do not take me wrong, there were many issues involved here, including Chaifetz. What was done was done. We should look at the future now.

[cheeseman]

10 hours ago, Old guy said:

I assume the consensus of the board gives Tate a good portion of Goodwin's apparent change in heart. Correct?

In what universe did Brad have a pipeline of talent?  That was why he got fired, he could not recruit.

[Old guy]

Taj just mentioned he had a good pipeline in the Eagles, and I really do not think that you have the scoop is to the reasons why he was fired. The AD who resigned after the firing was not involved in this and obviously disagreed with it and felt betrayed by it; and Biondi probably did not know a thing about recruiting to start with. So Cheeseman is this information about Soderberg's firing that you are posting or is it merely your a product of your learned opinion and imagination? Do you think, really, that Biondi was in sync with the way you thought about Soderberg and therefore he fired him. Certainly the AD at the time did not share that opinion.

[slu72]

I think we know why he was fired, the FR class he'd recruited for the upcoming season sucked. Yes, he came off a 20 W season, but we can only speculate how bad the upcoming season would have been. Only Relphorde was a legit D1 player. The rest of those guys were D2 or worse.

Chaifetz had just anted up $12mm for the new arena, and he, and others, didn't want to see mediocre hoops in his sparkling new arena, which is pretty much what Soderberg was delivering.

His pipeline to the Eagles was his son, Kramer. The Suggs kid wasn't coming here because he and Kramer were best buds. He was following Zo to UW. Brad just plain missed on too many of his targets and made mistakes w/ others. The infamous Blake Ahern was rejected in favor of that f*&%er from MN, Shaw of SIUC was ignored because of the PF that went to Mizzery (name escapes me), Harrelson, who played well for UK, was sloughed off. All these kids wanted to come to SLU but Brad misread their talent. I'd venture to say had he pulled in Ahern, Shaw, and Harrelson he might well have had us in the dance along w/ Kevin and Tommy. But didn't happen.

[cheeseman]

33 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Taj just mentioned he had a good pipeline in the Eagles, and I really do not think that you have the scoop is to the reasons why he was fired. The AD who resigned after the firing was not involved in this and obviously disagreed with it and felt betrayed by it; and Biondi probably did not know a thing about recruiting to start with. So Cheeseman is this information about Soderberg's firing that you are posting or is it merely your a product of your learned opinion and imagination? Do you think, really, that Biondi was in sync with the way you thought about Soderberg and therefore he fired him. Certainly the AD at the time did not share that opinion.

Not sure what Taj is referencing regarding his pipeline to the Eagles you will have to ask him.  As Slu72 said Brad's contact was only through his kid and his kid turned out to be a low D1 prospect who ended up his career in a lower division.  No, I never said Biondi and I were in sync.  The story on Brad's firing and RM's hiring is well known - Frank C reported on the process extensively on his TV and radio shows.  By the way Slu72 gave the best recap of Brad's troubles recruiting.  Attendance was dropping and Biondi was concerned about filling the new arena - also common knowledge.   I am not sure why you have to be so combative if anyone post anything that you perceive as negative.  It must be hard being you given that you are see yourself under attack all the time - you know you can get help with that.

[Old guy]

Cheeseman, now that you and Slu72 have clarified the situation, and we all know how hard it is to be me and how combative I am, maybe we can move on. However, i think I am also entitled to clarify my own point of view, rather than be left aside as a bit of a maniac requiring therapy.

From my own point of view (note that this is clearly presented as my opinion, not as fact) whenever events like the firing of Soderberg, the resignation of the then AD, and the hiring of Majerus happen, there is always a lot of internal political issues in play that never see the light of day. Of course many people, who do not understand this flow of political issues and needs, fix up on something more or less concrete to be "the cause."  "The cause" then becomes whatever these more "factual" people decide to fix on. It is like the media talking heads on the financial news declaring in any given day that the market went up or down in that particular day because, WalMart had had a poor earnings report or some other thing they picked up to pin the blame on. This is entirely fine with me, it is the way the world works after all. I guess we ride in different boats going down the river of life and see things in different ways. That does not make you or Slu72 bad people, just people that see things differently than I do. No, I do not need help any more than you do.

Differences in ways of looking at things do not detract from the fact that the hiring of Majerus (and concurrent firing of Soderberg, and resignation of the AD) was crafted by Chaifetz and Biondi with no input from the then AD. And yes, in justification of your point of view, after the fact of a firing (but particularly more after a firing for political reasons) long lists of faults and disadvantages of anyone in any position can be, and generally will be, generated to justify the firing action in a "factual" basis, as you both have just done. Truth in these matters is very hard, or impossible, to find and sooner or later you must make a choice as to which "truth" you wish to accept. I think we both have done so.

Majerus was great but did not live long enough to benefit our program in a lasting way.

[bonwich]

6 hours ago, Old guy said:

rather than be left aside as a bit of a maniac requiring therapy.

This is a preference for board membership, not a disqualification. 

[Old guy]

If that is the case Bonwich I may have disqualified myself.

[Taj79]

My "pipeline" comment on Brad was his son.  Many said because he could go to Eagles games as a father and not a coach allowed him perceived access to these kids and some supposition that he had the best chance possible to land Suggs, the kid from Hazelwood (who went on to trouble at Mizzou) and some others.  That I got from a lot of the folks connected to the program including McIlhagga and Levrick (in personal conversations in Atlantic City).  It was much like the second coming of Hughes, Baniak,Tatum, Redden and Heinrich, or so it was 

[kshoe]

 

1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

My "pipeline" comment on Brad was his son.  Many said because he could go to Eagles games as a father and not a coach allowed him perceived access to these kids and some supposition that he had the best chance possible to land Suggs, the kid from Hazelwood (who went on to trouble at Mizzou) and some others.  That I got from a lot of the folks connected to the program including McIlhagga and Levrick (in personal conversations in Atlantic City).  It was much like the second coming of Hughes, Baniak,Tatum, Redden and Heinrich, or so it was 

Kalen grimes (the hazelwood kid) committed to Mizzou in 2003 and soderberg was fired in 2007. 

this is why rehashing old discussions with misleading memories is a fools errand.

[Old guy]

Thank you Taj for your own clarification in this regard, much appreciated. 

[Taj79]

I may have missed on the Grimes name, but the thought process remains intact.  Soderberg was supposed to use the father-son connection with Kramer to get through to Eagle recruits.  Never happened regardless of the names.  I appreciate my BFF kshoe for the Grimes timeframe correction.

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

 Soderberg was supposed to use the father-son connection with Kramer to get through to Eagle recruits.  Never happened regardless of the names.  

-this was the thought at the time

-I looked at all metro from Kramer's junior and senior years and here are the names, I don't know who played for the Eagles but none of these had remarkable college careers so perhaps the connection to the Eagles was not the asset it was thought to be, could they have helped SLU?, perhaps

-* indicates player of the year

2007

Kavon Lacey, Alton, sr., 6-1

Leon Powell, Vashon, sr., 6-7

*Torres Roundtree, McCluer North, sr., 6-3

Kramer Soderberg, St. Charles West, jr., 5-11

Josh McCoy, Fort Zumwalt South, sr., 6-4

2008

Ruben Cotto, Alton, sr., 6-0

Drew Hanlen, Webster Groves, sr., 5-11

Josh McCoy, Fort Zumwalt South, sr., 6-4

*Kramer Soderberg, St. Charles West, sr., 5-11

Scott Suggs, Washington, sr., 6-7

 

[slufan13]

The problem with the Eagles is that they want you to take a chance on their lesser players and then they'll hype SLU up to their studs. That's why I think getting a guy like Tate was so important because he builds a different relationship with the Eagles program rather than just "if you give, I'll give"