bonwich Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Have a nice day, everyone. http://www.stlmag.com/news/slu-moves-controversial-statue-into-art-museum-de-smet/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Jimbo's not going to like this! It's kind of hard to believe it took until 2015 to decide to move that thing. It's always been an embarrassment. I think billikens.com should commission a statue of Tatum to go in its place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayne's_World Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I agree, and I think most others as well, that the statue itself is somewhat of an embarrassment. Not a very good representation of Fr. DeSmet's missionary work.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 And STILL no Easy Ed statue. This thread will be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 It always made me laugh in an "I can't believe this exists" sort of way. It's the part of the campus tour similar to Leslie talking about the murals in Pawnee City Hall, like "The Trial of Chief Wamapo" - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 But without what's shown in the statue, would we have had our most famous graduate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheA_Bomb Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Can these threads come with trigger warnings? They really trigger some bad parts of my past and run ins I've have with Colonialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 But without what's shown in the statue, would we have had our most famous graduate? I love the Charbonneau reference. But yes, we still would have had him...Charbonneau attended the Saint Louis Academy before DeSmet started his missionary work in Missouri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 You know guys, I have been reading this thread and think many of you believe there is a right and a wrong that never changes, it is the same forever. Nothing is forever people, it is like marriage, not forever, not for many of us anyways. Let me say a few things and then I will be through. If you go to a museum and see Mayan or Aztec pottery you will see art showing priests taking living hearts out of captives chests, you will see kings drinking captives blood out of ceremonial cups. This is terrible stuff, but once upon a time it was a sign of power, a sign of piety even (to their very bloodthirsty gods). Nowadays it is nothing other than an ugly picture of some guy drinking blood out of a ceremonial cup. Once upon a time Missouri was a slave state and there were lots of people in St. Louis that supported the South. They would have liked to make the State go with the Confederacy but could not bring it to pass. They pined and suffered with every defeat of the Southern Armies, and they suffered even more with the emancipation... This was 150 years ago, the fight for equality is not complete yet, but these people are gone. What they left behind in terms of statues, or monuments is nonsense now, just a historical note to a lifestyle and a culture that is gone forever. NO ONE can bring this back. Do not take me wrong, I am not supporting what these people thought and devoted their lives to 150 years ago. I think it was an act of divine providence that the Union retained Missouri, Maryland, Delaware and Kentucky on their side and that the South did not or could not do what they aimed to do. There is no new message here, what is done is done. All the statues and paintings that offend so many of us are nothing but the past. We should not look there, we should look to the future and only to the future. A Bomb, your experiences with colonialism are true and probably very disturbing, even terrible. There is a lot of evil in this world, however we must look forward to a better day and try our best to get there, the past is gone. As far as I know, no one culture engages in ritual killing and blood drinking any longer, we (as in the human race) have gone beyond that. Please if you have a chance go see the battlefield at Gettysburg. Amazing place, every state that had troops (and thousands of dead there) made their own monument in their memory. Both South and North are united in this beautiful and bloody place forever. This is where we come from, not where we are going to. This is the past, not the future. We had segregated Northern and Southern regiments until WWI when we got the Rainbow division made out of Northern and Southern units. We had segregated black and white units until Nam when we fought together in the same units. Progress is slow but it happens. We have shown we can fight and bleed together. We are all green now in the Army, not black and white. Is it too much to expect that the country will follow on the steps of the armed forces? We should all be proud to be American, and to know our country is capable of making terrible mistakes, but also it is capable to change and seek solutions for its problems. The important thing is to work to make the future better, together. Memorial day always brings lots of thoughts to my mind, I apologize if I offended anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 You know guys, I have been reading this thread and think many of you believe there is a right and a wrong that never changes, it is the same forever. Nothing is forever people, it is like marriage, not forever, not for many of us anyways. Let me say a few things and then I will be through. If you go to a museum and see Mayan or Aztec pottery you will see art showing priests taking living hearts out of captives chests, you will see kings drinking captives blood out of ceremonial cups. This is terrible stuff, but once upon a time it was a sign of power, a sign of piety even (to their very bloodthirsty gods). Nowadays it is nothing other than an ugly picture of some guy drinking blood out of a ceremonial cup. Once upon a time Missouri was a slave state and there were lots of people in St. Louis that supported the South. They would have liked to make the State go with the Confederacy but could not bring it to pass. They pined and suffered with every defeat of the Southern Armies, and they suffered even more with the emancipation... This was 150 years ago, the fight for equality is not complete yet, but these people are gone. What they left behind in terms of statues, or monuments is nonsense now, just a historical note to a lifestyle and a culture that is gone forever. NO ONE can bring this back. Do not take me wrong, I am not supporting what these people thought and devoted their lives to 150 years ago. I think it was an act of divine providence that the Union retained Missouri, Maryland, Delaware and Kentucky on their side and that the South did not or could not do what they aimed to do. There is no new message here, what is done is done. All the statues and paintings that offend so many of us are nothing but the past. We should not look there, we should look to the future and only to the future. A Bomb, your experiences with colonialism are true and probably very disturbing, even terrible. There is a lot of evil in this world, however we must look forward to a better day and try our best to get there, the past is gone. As far as I know, no one culture engages in ritual killing and blood drinking any longer, we (as in the human race) have gone beyond that. Please if you have a chance go see the battlefield at Gettysburg. Amazing place, every state that had troops (and thousands of dead there) made their own monument in their memory. Both South and North are united in this beautiful and bloody place forever. This is where we come from, not where we are going to. This is the past, not the future. We had segregated Northern and Southern regiments until WWI when we got the Rainbow division made out of Northern and Southern units. We had segregated black and white units until Nam when we fought together in the same units. Progress is slow but it happens. We have shown we can fight and bleed together. We are all green now in the Army, not black and white. Is it too much to expect that the country will follow on the steps of the armed forces? We should all be proud to be American, and to know our country is capable of making terrible mistakes, but also it is capable to change and seek solutions for its problems. The important thing is to work to make the future better, together. Memorial day always brings lots of thoughts to my mind, I apologize if I offended anyone. Old guy, as a proud citizen of the Muscogee Creek Nation and an attorney that has worked for 300+ tribes across the nation, I respectfully, but wholeheartedly, disagree. I believe you are a very intelligent person, but I don't believe you are educated at all on this front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Moytoy I will agree with you that I am not educated in this front as you say. I apologize for offending you and your people, this was not my intention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabills Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 You know guys, I have been reading this thread and think many of you believe there is a right and a wrong that never changes, it is the same forever. Nothing is forever people, it is like marriage, not forever, not for many of us anyways. Let me say a few things and then I will be through. If you go to a museum and see Mayan or Aztec pottery you will see art showing priests taking living hearts out of captives chests, you will see kings drinking captives blood out of ceremonial cups. This is terrible stuff, but once upon a time it was a sign of power, a sign of piety even (to their very bloodthirsty gods). Nowadays it is nothing other than an ugly picture of some guy drinking blood out of a ceremonial cup. Once upon a time Missouri was a slave state and there were lots of people in St. Louis that supported the South. They would have liked to make the State go with the Confederacy but could not bring it to pass. They pined and suffered with every defeat of the Southern Armies, and they suffered even more with the emancipation... This was 150 years ago, the fight for equality is not complete yet, but these people are gone. What they left behind in terms of statues, or monuments is nonsense now, just a historical note to a lifestyle and a culture that is gone forever. NO ONE can bring this back. Do not take me wrong, I am not supporting what these people thought and devoted their lives to 150 years ago. I think it was an act of divine providence that the Union retained Missouri, Maryland, Delaware and Kentucky on their side and that the South did not or could not do what they aimed to do. There is no new message here, what is done is done. All the statues and paintings that offend so many of us are nothing but the past. We should not look there, we should look to the future and only to the future. A Bomb, your experiences with colonialism are true and probably very disturbing, even terrible. There is a lot of evil in this world, however we must look forward to a better day and try our best to get there, the past is gone. As far as I know, no one culture engages in ritual killing and blood drinking any longer, we (as in the human race) have gone beyond that. Please if you have a chance go see the battlefield at Gettysburg. Amazing place, every state that had troops (and thousands of dead there) made their own monument in their memory. Both South and North are united in this beautiful and bloody place forever. This is where we come from, not where we are going to. This is the past, not the future. We had segregated Northern and Southern regiments until WWI when we got the Rainbow division made out of Northern and Southern units. We had segregated black and white units until Nam when we fought together in the same units. Progress is slow but it happens. We have shown we can fight and bleed together. We are all green now in the Army, not black and white. Is it too much to expect that the country will follow on the steps of the armed forces? We should all be proud to be American, and to know our country is capable of making terrible mistakes, but also it is capable to change and seek solutions for its problems. The important thing is to work to make the future better, together. Memorial day always brings lots of thoughts to my mind, I apologize if I offended anyone. when you say "There is no new message here, what is done is done. All the statues and paintings that offend so many of us are nothing but the past. We should not look there, we should look to the future and only to the future", you are ignoring the fact that these statues constitute a part of a created world, and by keeping them you are bringing that tradition that you say is gone with us into the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billboy1 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The world is based on history whether we like it or not. It cannot be erased or forgotten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Oldguy is the best. Awesome post here. Like moytoy, I also have American Indian heritage (Muscogee as well as Choctaw and Chickasaw). To bring things full circle, some of those Indian ancestors from Missouri and Alabama fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War. I see a clear difference between original Confederate memorials erected by actual Confederate veterans and more recent Confederate symbols intended only as a middle finger to the federal government and black people during the Civil Rights Movement and later. Likewise, I see a difference between monuments to De Smet or even Custer that were erected by people who actually lived through those times and modern monuments by people who weren't there but intend only to perpetuate or revive an inaccurate or one-sided view of history. I am all for leaving both the Confederate memorial and the Siegel memorial up in Forest Park to acknowledge St. Louis' history as a divided city during the Civil War. I think it's important to remember that reality. If the De Smet statue dated back to the 1870s and reflected contemporary attitudes toward his missionary work with Indians, I would say it was worth keeping up on campus too. But a creepy statue by some lady from the late 1980s? I don't think that adds anything to our understanding of history. I say put it in the museum. That's where it belongs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Oh, I think objects are emotion lightning rods, like politics. Emotion is internal, it is not material or objective. I think that in order to create a future that is good and available to everyone, we must treat these objects for what they are, things of the past, dusty and dirty (after generations of pigeon droppings in the case of statues) and not representative of the now or of the future. The theory of "never forgive, never forget" is the basis for a lot of suffering and conflict, atrocities even. Indeed if we want a better world, we must forgive and forget. Did Christ not preach the value of turning the other cheek? Is this not what Dr. Pestello do during the occupation of SLU last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Sorry hsmith, I posted before seeing your post. Thank you very much. I am in full agreement with the distinction you make about statues and memorials based upon the purpose of the memorial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The weird thing about the De Smet statue is that it makes him look like one of the Spanish conquistadors subjugating the natives. That really wasn't the kind of guy he was, or that most of the French-speaking Jesuit missionaries were. I agree with D_W that it is really just as offensive to the memory of De Smet as it is to Sitting Bull or the Indian nations he dealt with. I've always thought it represented kind of a confused conception of Catholic history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenlar Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Viewed through our own bias history is hard enough. Distorted further by popular culture, it becomes even harder to deal with. With that said, I've always thought that the statue said more about the artist than the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayne's_World Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 The weird thing about the De Smet statue is that it makes him look like one of the Spanish conquistadors subjugating the natives. That really wasn't the kind of guy he was, or that most of the French-speaking Jesuit missionaries were. I agree with D_W that it is really just as offensive to the memory of De Smet as it is to Sitting Bull or the Indian nations he dealt with. I've always thought it represented kind of a confused conception of Catholic history. This. If one simply learns the history of Fr Desmet, they would know that he dedicated his life to live amongst the native tribes in the west. He did not force them to convert or subjugate them, but rather, in the spirit of the Jesuit mission he showed them who Christ was and let them decide if they wanted to become a Christian. The Jesuits have always been men of the people throughout history, the same can be seen today with Pope Francis and all the good things he has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 They discussed the DeSmet statue on The Kelly File tonight, including a brief portion re the forthcoming statue honoring the campus protests. It will repeat at 11:46 tonight. Course, most of the foo foos on this thread were probably watching weirdo lefty Rachel Maddow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 The Jesuits had a long history of peaceful work aiming towards conversion among native peoples. They did try their best to improve their lives through religion and education. For example the Guarani in southern Brazil were converted and educated by the Jesuits. They formed a nation, the only native nation to come out of South America, Paraguay. Paraguay was very large and controlled the mouth of the River Plate. They were put down, destroyed and dismembered by an alliance of Brazil, Argentina and Chile in the late XIX century after the US Civil War. Paraguay, still true to is Guarani roots, was reduced to a tiny and very poor country but remains the only country in South America with true Native South American roots. It is interesting that the Mexicans after having been absorbed and totally subjugated by the Spaniards managed to return to a condition of honoring their native roots. I have to assume the Jesuits were involved in this somehow. DeSmet was not doing anything that the Jesuits had not done before. Francis Xavier himself was martyred in Japan after the Shogunate decided to exterminate Catholicism (Jesuit missions had succeeded converting large numbers of Japanese, including important lords) in in the islands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Correction, Francis Xavier died in China. Many catholic converts and members of the order were martyred in Japan. He was a personal friend of Ignatius Loyola. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 They discussed the DeSmet statue on The Kelly File tonight, including a brief portion re the forthcoming statue honoring the campus protests. It will repeat at 11:46 tonight. Course, most of the foo foos on this thread were probably watching weirdo lefty Rachel Maddow. I feel sorry for anyone watching either show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayne's_World Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I feel sorry for anyone watching either show. MSNBC and Fox are both garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I feel sorry for anyone watching either show. I was watching a rodeo and cleaning my guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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