Better Fit for SLU: BE or AAC?

[Box and Won]

Academics has been at the forefront of UConn not getting an invite to the ACC as well.

I hope President Pestello gets our academic rating into the Top 50.

We've got a long way to go at #101 in U.S. News. UConn is ranked #57.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Wait, where is this happening? Curious as to what they're saying.

www.holylandofhoops.net

There is a seemingly never ending thread there re Big East expansion.

[JettFlight5]

www.holylandofhoops.net

There is a seemingly never ending thread there re Big East expansion.

They cite two things: lack of postseason success/historical pedigree and the "rebuilding year" coming up...but Butler's swan dive is OK.

[cgeldmacher]

I have lived in the SF Bay Area since graduating from SLU Law School in 1985. The Bay Area has 2 Pac-12 schools (Stanford and Cal) and 3 WCC schools (USF, Santa Clara, and St. Mary's), with a new 4th school (UOP aka Pacific) in nearby Stockton.

When I first moved here, Gonzaga was little more than a WCC middler. There is no way, in my opinion, that Gonzaga, even now, located in Spokane, Washington, on the Other Side of Washington State, opposite Seattle, would be a consistently successful member of the Pac-12 Conference.

Eventually, the Football money going to the other schools would make it very difficult for Gonzaga to be a consistent winner in the Pac-12.

And it would never happen anyway. Led by Cal, the Pac-12 has no interest in being affiliated with a religious based school. That is the primary reason that BYU is not in the Pac-12 right now.

It also amuses me when I read the proclamations from On High at that NBE www.holylandofhoops.net website about the merits of the inclusion of Gonzaga in the New Big East. The logistics of getting to Spokane, Washington would be nightmarish for the Olympic sports, and a virtual impossibility for Gonzaga sports other than Men's Basketball, traveling both eastward and southward across 2 or 3 time zones. Gonzaga is better than Butler overall and over time, and the WCC is a better league overall than Butler's old Horizon League, but the two are very similar. Those people don't seem to realize that even Gonzaga's new Kennel, still seats only 6,000.

There was a time in the recent conference dominos that Texas and Oklahoma, along possibly with their appendages, Oklahoma State and Texas Tech (if Texas and OU had their way over the Pac-12 wants) were thought to be Pac-12 bound. But someone in Austin finally figured out how many Texas teams would be playing games 2 time zones, meaning 2 hour time difference, away in the Pacific Time Zone. There is a big land expanse East of Reno and West of Salt Lake City or Denver, take your pick.

I agree/am willing to concede the idea that academics have appeared to play a role in conference affiliation in the past. I certainly can't deny it. If we can agree that this has been a consideration, then I would have to agree that it may play into the decision making process for SLU both on SLU's part and on the BE's part.

However, I don't see why it has been such a big deal to schools in the past. This year, we almost beat Wisconsin on a neutral site. Did it matter what their academic philosophies were compared to ours? Did it matter, when we played them, that they are a big state school and we were a smaller private school? If we were in a conference with them, would any of those things matter? Had we won the Wisconsin game, these factors wouldn't have made any difference to how folks viewed that win and what it did for our tournament resume.

I totally agree with KShoe, if you are a college basketball program of any relevance, the NCAA tournament is what matters, not whether you are alligned with similar schools in your conference. If you can put yourself in a league of completely different schools than yours from the standpoint of academics, athletic budgets, facilities, etc., and you compete in that conference and being in that conference puts you in the best position to participate in and do well in the NCAA tournament, you would value being in that conference much more than you would being in a conference of like-minded institutions that don't give you the same competition.

[Bay Area Billiken]

They cite two things: lack of postseason success/historical pedigree and the "rebuilding year" coming up...but Butler's swan dive is OK.

Re both points, they make it sound like everything good that has happened at SLU the last 3 years, a school record 3 straight NCAA Tournament appearances, is all a mirage, all due to the large "shadow" of Coach Majerus, as if what has happened, what is in the books, is not reality. They predict SLU's imminent demise.

They give Butler a pass. They disregard Butler's past before all the good teams left the mid-major Horizon. They dismiss Butler's present. They give Creighton a pass too, despite its last Sweet 16 appearance having occurred in 1974, when yours truly was in 8th Grade.

There are several sets of persecutors over there with different agendas. One is who we all know, the Great Turf Protector. The other is the Eastern Block interests who are concerned with keeping the Big East an Eastern based league, even though there is no worthy Eastern Seaboard expansion team.

And all of them cling to their 10 school "round robin," which translated means an annual visit every year to each school by Georgetown.

Of course, that 10 team "round robin" yielded 4 NCAA Tournament teams, as compared to the A10's 6 NCAA Tournament teams, and from the pronouncements from the NCAA Committee, that 4th NCAA team coming out of the NBE, Providence, would not have been in the NCAA Tournament field absent winning the Big East Tournament and snaring the Big East's automatic bid. Had Creighton beaten Providence in the Big East Final at MSG, the NBE would have likely had only 3 NCAA Tournament teams in its inaugural voyage.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I agree/am willing to concede the idea that academics have appeared to play a role in conference affiliation in the past. I certainly can't deny it. If we can agree that this has been a consideration, then I would have to agree that it may play into the decision making process for SLU both on SLU's part and on the BE's part.

However, I don't see why it has been such a big deal to schools in the past. This year, we almost beat Wisconsin on a neutral site. Did it matter what their academic philosophies were compared to ours? Did it matter, when we played them, that they are a big state school and we were a smaller private school? If we were in a conference with them, would any of those things matter? Had we won the Wisconsin game, these factors wouldn't have made any difference to how folks viewed that win and what it did for our tournament resume.

I totally agree with KShoe, if you are a college basketball program of any relevance, the NCAA tournament is what matters, not whether you are alligned with similar schools in your conference. If you can put yourself in a league of completely different schools than yours from the standpoint of academics, athletic budgets, facilities, etc., and you compete in that conference and being in that conference puts you in the best position to participate in and do well in the NCAA tournament, you would value being in that conference much more than you would being in a conference of like-minded institutions that don't give you the same competition.

The available TV revenue is exponentially greater in the NBE, as opposed to the A10. Eventually, over time, that disparity adds up.

[JettFlight5]

Re both points, they make it sound like everything good that has happened at SLU the last 3 years, a school record 3 straight NCAA Tournament appearances, is all a mirage, all due to the large "shadow" of Coach Majerus, as if what has happened, what is in the books, is not reality. They predict SLU's imminent demise.

They give Butler a pass. They disregard Butler's past before all the good teams left the mid-major Horizon. They dismiss Butler's present. They give Creighton a pass too, despite its last Sweet 16 appearance having occurred in 1974, when yours truly was in 8th Grade.

There are several sets of persecutors over there with different agendas. One is who we all know, the Great Turf Protector. The other is the Eastern Block interests who are concerned with keeping the Big East an Eastern based league, even though there is no worthy Eastern Seaboard expansion team.

And all of them cling to their 10 school "round robin," which translated means an annual visit every year to each school by Georgetown.

Of course, that 10 team "round robin" yielded 4 NCAA Tournament teams, as compared to the A10's 6 NCAA Tournament teams, and from the pronouncements from the NCAA Committee, that 4th NCAA team coming out of the NBE, Providence, would not have been in the NCAA Tournament field absent winning the Big East Tournament and snaring the Big East's automatic bid. Had Creighton beaten Providence in the Big East Final at MSG, the NBE would have likely had only 3 NCAA Tournament teams in its inaugural voyage.

I don't have a problem with the "don't expand" crowd. I have a problem with one poster who might be the most obtuse ass I've ever encountered. I didn't want to expand the A-10 after last year either.

[kshoe]

Perhaps, although the main evidence they cite may be a cause for concern, there are explanations for everything they cite.

Of course, they will hear none of them.

Note the background of one of SLU's biggest persecutors over there.

Without even going over there, I'm going to guess its a Marquette fan (otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up). Must be part of the vast Marquette conspiracy against SLU.

[JettFlight5]

Without even going over there, I'm going to guess its a Marquette fan (otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up). Must be part of the vast Marquette conspiracy against SLU.

I was originally thinking of the UConn fan who I mentioned. The Marquette fans (one of which claims to be a SLU Law grad) are all over the board.

[Bay Area Billiken]

... The Marquette fans (one of which claims to be a SLU Law grad) are all over the board.

Bingo!

[sludevil]

So I think the "don't expand" argument is legitimate. There's something to be said for keeping your membership small and exclusive and, more importantly, doing the double round robin schedule.

On the other hand, it seems to me the Big East still fancies itself a basketball power conference. And if it's even going to think about staying in the conversation with the likes of the ACC, Big Ten, and other BCS conferences, it's going to need A Lot of Revenue. We can talk about parity and Cinderella successes all we want, but the unavoidable truth is that BCS conferences still tend to dominate the NCAA tournament (both in total bids and Championships/Final Fours). Sure, a mid-major may have a great year and get a bunch of teams in, but do we really think this is doable on a consistent basis? The A10, for example, seems poised to be a strong league for the foreseeable future, and is probably always going to have a few teams playing in March. But 6? There isn't any precedent for doing that on a consistent basis, and to believe that this is the New Normal seems like wishful thinking to the nth degree.

The reality is that, to be a consistently top conference - both in number of bids and tournament success - you need revenue. Doing a double round robin is adorable and I'm sure everyone loves the equal playing field of having a home-and-away series with everyone else. But I don't think the Big East can afford to stand still as other conferences continue to reap massive TV revenue. To do nothing (when there are viable alternatives on the table) is to basically resign yourself to mid-major status. Which is fine, if that's what the Big East is shooting for. But in terms of keeping up with the big boys, every dollar - whether from TV revenue, NCAA units, or elsewhere - is critical.

So if you have the option of taking SLU - a team that matches up well with your culture (urban, mid-size, Catholic, basketball-centric), has a relatively successful basketball program and strong institutional support for that program (see Chaifetz Arena), and opens up a substantial new media market - well, if you're serious about competing at the highest level, then you pull the trigger on that ten times out of ten.

[hsmith19]

That seems to be a really bad combination. I know there was an older Marquette fan/SLU Law grad who used to post on here, but there was another younger one in my class at SLU Law who pretty much acted the same way. Insufferable all around...

[JettFlight5]

That seems to be a really bad combination. I know there was an older Marquette fan/SLU Law grad who used to post on here, but there was another younger one in my class at SLU Law who pretty much acted the same way. Insufferable all around...

I'm glad I went to McKendree for undergrad and SLU Law. I don't think that combo is quite as offensive.

[hsmith19]

I went to Webster for undergrad. Hopefully one of these years SLU will pick Webster for their annual D3 exhibition game. Webster is a private, formerly Catholic school in the area, so if Fontbonne, Harris Stowe and the like are good enough, why not the Gorloks? It would be an entertaining clash of mascots, at least.

[Bay Area Billiken]

That seems to be a really bad combination. I know there was an older Marquette fan/SLU Law grad who used to post on here, but there was another younger one in my class at SLU Law who pretty much acted the same way. Insufferable all around...

And here we are in the Season of Lent, with Judas Iscariot about to make his "annual" appearance.

Or is a descendant of Benedict Arnold lurking On High in cyberspace?

[JettFlight5]

I went to Webster for undergrad. Hopefully one of these years SLU will pick Webster for their annual D3 exhibition game. Webster is a private, formerly Catholic school in the area, so if Fontbonne, Harris Stowe and the like are good enough, why not the Gorloks? It would be an entertaining clash of mascots, at least.

Yeah, I'm kind of hoping McKendree gets the call now that they're in the NCAA (albeit D2).

[JettFlight5]

So I think the "don't expand" argument is legitimate. There's something to be said for keeping your membership small and exclusive and, more importantly, doing the double round robin schedule.

On the other hand, it seems to me the Big East still fancies itself a basketball power conference. And if it's even going to think about staying in the conversation with the likes of the ACC, Big Ten, and other BCS conferences, it's going to need A Lot of Revenue. We can talk about parity and Cinderella successes all we want, but the unavoidable truth is that BCS conferences still tend to dominate the NCAA tournament (both in total bids and Championships/Final Fours). Sure, a mid-major may have a great year and get a bunch of teams in, but do we really think this is doable on a consistent basis? The A10, for example, seems poised to be a strong league for the foreseeable future, and is probably always going to have a few teams playing in March. But 6? There isn't any precedent for doing that on a consistent basis, and to believe that this is the New Normal seems like wishful thinking to the nth degree.

The reality is that, to be a consistently top conference - both in number of bids and tournament success - you need revenue. Doing a double round robin is adorable and I'm sure everyone loves the equal playing field of having a home-and-away series with everyone else. But I don't think the Big East can afford to stand still as other conferences continue to reap massive TV revenue. To do nothing (when there are viable alternatives on the table) is to basically resign yourself to mid-major status. Which is fine, if that's what the Big East is shooting for. But in terms of keeping up with the big boys, every dollar - whether from TV revenue, NCAA units, or elsewhere - is critical.

So if you have the option of taking SLU - a team that matches up well with your culture (urban, mid-size, Catholic, basketball-centric), has a relatively successful basketball program and strong institutional support for that program (see Chaifetz Arena), and opens up a substantial new media market - well, if you're serious about competing at the highest level, then you pull the trigger on that ten times out of ten.

I have to give you credit for working the word adorable into a basketball conversation.

[brianstl]

I was originally thinking of the UConn fan who I mentioned. The Marquette fans (one of which claims to be a SLU Law grad) are all over the board.

Do the Marquette fans realize their coach left them for f'ing VA Tech, Shaka turned them down and they will struggle to finish .500 next season?

[JettFlight5]

Do the Marquette fans realize their coach left them for f'ing VA Tech, Shaka turned them down and they will struggle to finish .500 next season?

Maybe. I mean, VT is a powerhouse, right?

[sludevil]

They might as well have lost their coach to the University of Phoenix.

[Littlebill]

Yeah, I'm kind of hoping McKendree gets the call now that they're in the NCAA (albeit D2).

I'm there now. (Go Bearcats) We played Illinois and MO State this year in preseason. Would love to see an McK-Bills game

[JettFlight5]

I'm there now. (Go Bearcats) We played Illinois and MO State this year in preseason. Would love to see an McK-Bills game

I'm in the grad school there now as well (Masters in Education).

[VeniceMenace]

This is a columnist from Providence, out east....reflects most reports about potential Big East expansion:

http://www.golocalprov.com/sports/john-rooke-thinking-out-loud130/

• Not for nuthin’…but Big East expansion? Fuhgeddaboutit. At least for the next year. The coaches loved the home-and-home round-robin setup, even if they didn’t like Fox’s scheduling of the games. The scheduling will be addressed this year, asFox will have assistance (if not give up outright) in that department. One more year, before this topic resurfaces. And the best bet for further expansion is in 2015-16 (if it happens at all, and TV will dictate that) to 12 teams, providing more inventory for TV, and more opportunity for increased post-season shares for the league…if you add the right teams. For my money, it’s still Saint Louis and Dayton as the front-runners…

• Which means the Atlantic-10 would be pick-pocketed again. There’s no right or wrong here. It’s just a matter of money, and because of TV, Big East membership stands to gain more for a school. The A-10 is a great conference. It’s unfortunate they don’t carry the cache – or the cash – of Big East membership, because of the history involved…

[Yenlar]

Did the details of the big east contract with Fox ever leak? I wonder how good/bad it really is.

[JettFlight5]

Fun "comparison" of the day:

A Creighton fan commenting that SLU isn't going to be good because the Billikens lose too much.

Umm, doesn't their one D1 player leave too?