Barnett vs. Cassity

[GOSLU68]

+1

Not as good as Luke Meyer's nose for the ball but competent.

I am somewhat disappointed that KM doesn't steal and rebound better- the rest of his game seems to have returned and KM certainly brought our passes back from intolerable in a hurry

[cheeseman]

I was not crazy about JB's development but I have to admit that he has now become a reasonable short minutes player - if he could get that 3pt shot to fall more consistently he would be a very nice player now. Manning looks over matched right now - will he be better Pnext year I hope so but if you have to grade him now he has not lived up to RM's pr. KC got worse as time went on but I do not hate the guy - he was frustrating but a good kid - I loved seeing his mom at every game in the same seat - good people I would guess.

[Littlebill]

I was not crazy about JB's development but I have to admit that he has now become a reasonable short minutes player - if he could get that 3pt shot to fall more consistently he would be a very nice player now. KC got worse as time went on

I don't know, JB is our fourth best 3PT shooter to this point (statwise at least-31%). I think JB will end up much better than Cassity because, although they serve different roles while playing, JB likes to shoot. He is going to get more PT next year, and I think people will go a little easier on him once he starts to put some points on the board. It's something he has shown he can do at Toledo, and I think if given the chance he will contribute. I am by no means saying that he should get more playing time this year. I am simply saying that comparing him to KC, especially senior KC, is just unfair. Jake will show us that he can contribute with some decent PT. He does bring a certain energy to the floor. It is what gets him those rebounds and loose balls. I say give the man credit. He is playing his current role about as well as anyone can ask him to.

[TJHawk]

Guys like Barnett and Cassity demonstrate the growth of the program. Before Rickma SLU had similar players as the lead scorer for the team. Now they are nice role players coming off the bench.

[Billiken Rich]

Romar was 2nd place on so many guys that could have changed the program. 1 or 2 more years and some of those were going to fall our way. What could've been.

This is unbelievably wishful thinking. Another couple of years might have left us with Pulley, Edwin, and Mcclain as our top three guards........

[thetorch]

Count me in as someone who complained about Cassity.

I agree with Roy though, you can't compare him to Barnett since they don't play the same position.

Cassity was a steady ballhandler, an occasional scorer, and a tough defender. In the end he was recruited over. Majerus may have gone with him a little too long but Cassity did enough things right to stay in the game. When McCall started to defend at the same level Kyle did, he became obselete.

Cassity's career reminds me of Carlos Macauley, except a little backwards. Carlos was very similar, gerat on the ball, excellent defender, but didn't do have many eye popping stat lines. He was recruited over after his freshman year, rarely saw the court then after2 years became a starter again and was the excact same player he was his freshman year. Cassity was very similar. He never got remarkably better but he was more than a serviceable player his entire career. When we got better players he sat. Keep in mind as well, Cassity played hurt alot. He never missed games but he was just chronically injured like Conklin was.

I'd rank Cassity's career certainly better than Diener's or Polk's. Diener was never in shape. That was a problem with the whole team. Spoon didn't run a tight ship, neither did Romar to an extent. Spoon let his stars play overweight. I would have liked to see how well Claggs would have been with a coach pushing him like Majerus to get in great condition. Polk was damaged goods. He wasn't a shooter out of HS. He used his speed to get to the basket and he some incredible athleticism to finish. His injury derailed him and he was too small physically to make up for it at the D-1 level.

[Box and Won]

This is unbelievably wishful thinking. Another couple of years might have left us with Pulley, Edwin, and Mcclain as our top three guards........

I liked Edwin. He had a pretty decent career at Kent State.

[Clock_Tower]

Comparisons between KC and JB are fine. As Roy mentions, though, not really that similar.

Similar: both similar sized, white kids playing role minutes (KC's Sr. year) and JB (now) with similar production: KC played 18 minutes/game his SR year (3.3 pts/game) while JB now is playing 16 minutes/game (3.9 pts/game).

Different: PG/Guard (KC) allowing him to have more assists v. Guard/Forward (JB) allowing him to have more rebounds. Trending in different directions: KC was a essentially a major contributor/starter his Soph & JR years before having a diminished role his SR year whereas JB played next to nothing last year, some this year and will likely be a major contributor next year. Minutes played: KC played 32 minutes/game (6 pts/game) his Soph years and 31 minutes/game (8 pts/game) his JR year while JB played 5 minutes per game (1.2 pts/game) his Soph year and now 16 minutes/game (4 pts/game). JB has never played 32 minutes per game.

In short, I admit that I had been critical of KC. I admit that I had posted that playing KC 32 minutes per game is like playing short handed: 4 guys against 5 guys. The reason, of course, comes down to KC's production (points per minutes). IMO, players need to score more than 6 to 8 points game if they are given 32 minutes per game. And to clarify in advance, had KC truly score 6 or 8 points each game (not averaged 6 or 8 points) and if KC was physically only capable of such production, then I'd have been less critical. In advance, I fully admit that a ton of starting players in college basketball only average 6 or 8 points per game. Keep in mind, averages can be deceiving in that KC had some very high scoring games followed by many games of 2 points per game which resulted in his averages of 6 pts/game and 8 pts/game. In big games, you cannot have a guy play 32 minutes (and at guard no less) and score only 2 points. Instead, with KC, he passed on shot after shot even though he had the physical tools to shoot and score. That's why I would make the "playing shorthanded" comments.

[SShoe]

This is unbelievably wishful thinking. Another couple of years might have left us with Pulley, Edwin, and Mcclain as our top three guards........

In fairness, he did sign Ryan Hollins, who is currently playing backup center for the Clippers.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I can't recall exact attacks, but I'm pretty sure there were some personal attacks on KC. Usually, these came from one of Metz' aliases.

Blatantly incorrect statement on your behalf. So all I have to do is put in parentheses (not a personal attack) and that makes it ok? Good to know moving forward.

[Billiken Rich]

In fairness, he did sign Ryan Hollins, who is currently playing backup center for the Clippers.

Yes he did and Hollins was really the only out of the ordinary recruit Romar won on.

I liked Edwin. He had a pretty decent career at Kent State.

I too liked Edwin but he'd be the fourth or fifth guard on our current team. He wasn't a game changer and his recruitment to the Bills certainly wasn't a reason to mourn the loss of Romar. Brad got better guards, though not enough of them.

[ACE]

Guys like Barnett and Cassity demonstrate the growth of the program. Before Rickma SLU had similar players as the lead scorer for the team. Now they are nice role players coming off the bench.

+1 Like I said in my initial post, their games are different, but they are both serving as the 4th perimeter player in the rotation and have received similar minutes. The numbers highlight that JB has adequately filled KC's minutes. And you are correct, it does demonstrate the depth that RM put together. Competent replacements were waiting in the wings. Agreed, that players like KC and JB would have been expected to take on bigger roles on most Billiken teams from the past. I expect JB to get a few more minutes next year and increase his production.

[Taj79]

It's a fine line to walk in terms of coach-speak and setting expectations. I still believe Majerus' comments on Manning were based solely on the fact you can't teach height and his being the most likely player on our roster to be an NBA talent becuase of that height. The same was somewhat said about Barnett and him being all-conference at some time. There the bar is very high. I'd like to point out that neither Ian Vouyoukous nor Chris Heinrich nor Bryce Husak made the NBA and Manning's development would be behind all three with the exception of Husak right now. John's ship HAS to come in next year at the start of the season if you ask me. Otherwise, he stands to be another Husak.

Kyle Cassity never came in with any of these kinds of accolades if I recall. Roy might have said "NBA talent." I recall Thompson and Cotto and Reed having higher promo upsides in that initial Majerus class. Maybe Mitchell too but neither Cassity nor Conklin were "headliners" as I recall.

I'm proud to include Kyle in SLU's alumni group. Good enouigh by me. I think he gave us what he had anhd you really can't ask for more.

[ACE]

It's a fine line to walk in terms of coach-speak and setting expectations. I still believe Majerus' comments on Manning were based solely on the fact you can't teach height and his being the most likely player on our roster to be an NBA talent becuase of that height. The same was somewhat said about Barnett and him being all-conference at some time. There the bar is very high. I'd like to point out that neither Ian Vouyoukous nor Chris Heinrich nor Bryce Husak made the NBA and Manning's development would be behind all three with the exception of Husak right now. John's ship HAS to come in next year at the start of the season if you ask me. Otherwise, he stands to be another Husak.

Kyle Cassity never came in with any of these kinds of accolades if I recall. Roy might have said "NBA talent." I recall Thompson and Cotto and Reed having higher promo upsides in that initial Majerus class. Maybe Mitchell too but neither Cassity nor Conklin were "headliners" as I recall.

I'm proud to include Kyle in SLU's alumni group. Good enouigh by me. I think he gave us what he had anhd you really can't ask for more.

Kyle was pretty highly regarded. He had offers (not just interest) from Penn State and Michigan. Regarding Barnett and the all-conference talk, that was just RM building up the guys on the bench. It's a common tactic he has used to keep the starters motivated... get them thinking there was somebody behind them capable of taking their minutes. He also built up Manning for the same reason. BTW, I'm not so sure sophomore Manning is worse than the sophomore versions of Ian and Heinrich.

If you noticed, RM was mainly talking about Barnett being a potential all-conference player the year he was sitting out. Once Barnett was eligible to play, I never heard RM say it again.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Kyle was pretty highly regarded. He had offers (not just interest) from Penn State and Michigan. Regarding Barnett and the all-conference talk, that was just RM building up the guys on the bench. It's a common tactic he has used to keep the starters motivated... get them thinking there was somebody behind them capable of taking their minutes. He also built up Manning for the same reason. BTW, I'm not so sure sophomore Manning is worse than the sophomore versions of Ian and Heinrich.

If you noticed, RM was mainly talking about Barnett being a potential all-conference player the year he was sitting out. Once Barnett was eligible to play, I never heard RM say it again.

90 minutes total PT during RM's swan song year really isn't a good enough sample size. He set the tone of the Butler game and guys fed off his energy. He knows his role for this year...

[Box and Won]

BTW, I'm not so sure sophomore Manning is worse than the sophomore versions of Ian and Heinrich.

He's better, IMO.

[thetorch]

He's better, IMO.

Maybe to Heinrich but by this time Ian in his soph year Ian was already showing signs of dominance. I remember ramsey saying he was already the best offensive center in the league late his sophomore season.

[Taj79]

By the end of their sophomore years (just to make it easy on the math):

Heinrich = 64 games; 88-211 FG; 41.7% FG%; 190 Rebounds; 18 Asst; 27 Blocks; 24 Steals; 251 points; 4.3 ppg

Ian = 48 games; 86-177 FG; 48.6% FG%; 181 Rebounds; 26 Asst; 23 Blocks; 14 Steals; 233 points; 4.9 ppg.

Manning career to date:

Manning = 30 games; 20- 51 FG; 39.2% FG%; 25 Rebounds; 4 Asst; 15 Blocks; 0 Steals; 49 points; 1.6 ppg

Now I might allow for an unfair ruling because Manning still has the possibility of 12 or 13 more games this year to add to his totals but he is not exactly trending in a direction that would suggest he'd see the floor, let alone go ballistic to the tune of 202 points to catch Heiny or 190 to catch Ian. To box, I'd say your opinion is not much (nicely tho). By the numbers alone (Ace) Manning is indeed worse. And he's not trending very well right now either. Yeah, it's not fair .. Heiney and Ian both came into different siutations than John did, where they were the sole big man on the roster, but John's not showing me much to suggest he's nothing more that Husak Redoux.

Two years ago, I closed out the 2010-11 season with the opinion that CR was the most disappointing player and, if I recall, I said in the entire A10 at the time. That was tainted by my being a Billiken fan and having high expectations. Now that I know who CR is, not so much. But to be fair, if I did that with CR then, I have to do it with JM now. And it's not for body of work (which there is little) but more for the fact that no signs of any life really exist. JB has gotten better and contributes. GG is now contributing too. CR contributes what I expect he can. Km draws an injury pass. The rest (JJ,MM,CE, DE, RL) all have met or exceeded expectations.

I waited on the Husak Express to arrive an di tnever did. Is this the case with ther Manning Bus as well? And I get the "project" stuff. When does the "project" label get retired on JM? Next year? Early? Just so I know ......

[ACE]

By the end of their sophomore years (just to make it easy on the math):

Heinrich = 64 games; 88-211 FG; 41.7% FG%; 190 Rebounds; 18 Asst; 27 Blocks; 24 Steals; 251 points; 4.3 ppg

Ian = 48 games; 86-177 FG; 48.6% FG%; 181 Rebounds; 26 Asst; 23 Blocks; 14 Steals; 233 points; 4.9 ppg.

Manning career to date:

Manning = 30 games; 20- 51 FG; 39.2% FG%; 25 Rebounds; 4 Asst; 15 Blocks; 0 Steals; 49 points; 1.6 ppg

Now I might allow for an unfair ruling because Manning still has the possibility of 12 or 13 more games this year to add to his totals but he is not exactly trending in a direction that would suggest he'd see the floor, let alone go ballistic to the tune of 202 points to catch Heiny or 190 to catch Ian. To box, I'd say your opinion is not much (nicely tho). By the numbers alone (Ace) Manning is indeed worse. And he's not trending very well right now either. Yeah, it's not fair .. Heiney and Ian both came into different siutations than John did, where they were the sole big man on the roster, but John's not showing me much to suggest he's nothing more that Husak Redoux.

Two years ago, I closed out the 2010-11 season with the opinion that CR was the most disappointing player and, if I recall, I said in the entire A10 at the time. That was tainted by my being a Billiken fan and having high expectations. Now that I know who CR is, not so much. But to be fair, if I did that with CR then, I have to do it with JM now. And it's not for body of work (which there is little) but more for the fact that no signs of any life really exist. JB has gotten better and contributes. GG is now contributing too. CR contributes what I expect he can. Km draws an injury pass. The rest (JJ,MM,CE, DE, RL) all have met or exceeded expectations.

I waited on the Husak Express to arrive an di tnever did. Is this the case with ther Manning Bus as well? And I get the "project" stuff. When does the "project" label get retired on JM? Next year? Early? Just so I know ......

It is not easy to compare, becasue Ian and Heinrich got a lot more minutes as sophomores, because they played on teams with a lot less talent and depth. I agree with torch that Ian started showing glimpses of junior year version of Ian late in his soph. season. I'm not convinced the sophomore version of Heinrich was better than Manning. Look at it another way, if you put sophomore Ian or Heinrich on THIS team, I think you would probably be getting similar minutes and production out of them that Manning is giving.

[billiken_roy]

It is not easy to compare, becasue Ian and Heinrich got a lot more minutes as sophomores, because they played on teams with a lot less talent and depth. I agree with torch that Ian started showing glimpses of junior year version of Ian late in his soph. season. I'm not convinced the sophomore version of Heinrich was better than Manning. Look at it another way, if you put sophomore Ian or Heinrich on THIS team, I think you would probably be getting similar minutes and production out of them that Manning is giving.

i would take soph ian over every "big" we currently have with the exception of senior ellis who has blossumed into a complete player his senior season. ellis is the example of why we should hold out hope for the rest thought.

[ACE]

By the end of their sophomore years (just to make it easy on the math):

Heinrich = 64 games; 88-211 FG; 41.7% FG%; 190 Rebounds; 18 Asst; 27 Blocks; 24 Steals; 251 points; 4.3 ppg

Ian = 48 games; 86-177 FG; 48.6% FG%; 181 Rebounds; 26 Asst; 23 Blocks; 14 Steals; 233 points; 4.9 ppg.

Manning career to date:

Manning = 30 games; 20- 51 FG; 39.2% FG%; 25 Rebounds; 4 Asst; 15 Blocks; 0 Steals; 49 points; 1.6 ppg

Now I might allow for an unfair ruling because Manning still has the possibility of 12 or 13 more games this year to add to his totals but he is not exactly trending in a direction that would suggest he'd see the floor, let alone go ballistic to the tune of 202 points to catch Heiny or 190 to catch Ian. To box, I'd say your opinion is not much (nicely tho). By the numbers alone (Ace) Manning is indeed worse. And he's not trending very well right now either. Yeah, it's not fair .. Heiney and Ian both came into different siutations than John did, where they were the sole big man on the roster, but John's not showing me much to suggest he's nothing more that Husak Redoux.

Two years ago, I closed out the 2010-11 season with the opinion that CR was the most disappointing player and, if I recall, I said in the entire A10 at the time. That was tainted by my being a Billiken fan and having high expectations. Now that I know who CR is, not so much. But to be fair, if I did that with CR then, I have to do it with JM now. And it's not for body of work (which there is little) but more for the fact that no signs of any life really exist. JB has gotten better and contributes. GG is now contributing too. CR contributes what I expect he can. Km draws an injury pass. The rest (JJ,MM,CE, DE, RL) all have met or exceeded expectations.

I waited on the Husak Express to arrive an di tnever did. Is this the case with ther Manning Bus as well? And I get the "project" stuff. When does the "project" label get retired on JM? Next year? Early? Just so I know ......

Your numbers are pretty deceptive. Of Manning's "30 games" - many of those from his freshman season were coming in for a minute or two in garbage time at the end of games. Pretty hard to judge him on that. Both Ian and Heinrich played regular minutes as freshmen.

This year, Manning is shooting .485 fg% and averaging 2.4 ppg in 7.3 mpg. I suspect that it is pretty close to the early production of Ian and Heinrich.

[Taj79]

Completely disagree, ACE. This is a foollish argument because we can't get resolution. If you are saying that Heiney and Ian sit on the bench like Manning did his freshman year and they have this same coaching staff and philosphy, the argument is likely a winner in your direction. if you are saying sophomore development to sophomore development, I believe the arguments sways into my favor.

In 97-98, Heiney's first year, he's with Hughes, Baniak and others. He's playing in all 33 games, he's starting as I recall; and he's knocking curly head against teams like Vanderbilt, Illinois, UCLA, Syracuse, Iowa State, Arkansas, Memphis, UAB, Houston, Louisville, Charlotte .. the list goes on and ends wiht a 2nd round loss to Kentucky.

In Ian's first year, he gets only 21 games of a 32 game schedule but I recall he was late due to some sort of problem (NCAA?) and Brad was slow to go to him. But still, he knocks heads with the typical CUSA crowd and plays two NIT games. In both cases, they played. John Manning hasd NOT.

I'd agree to reverse the statement this way .... if John Manning were on the same teams with Ian and Heiney, he develops still at the rate we see today. Bryce Husak --- but Bryce actually had a decent 3-pt shot. Not as good as Loe, but better than Manning. If and when JM explodes, I will gladly be the poster boy for "shocked."

[ACE]

i would take soph ian over every "big" we currently have with the exception of senior ellis who has blossumed into a complete player his senior season. ellis is the example of why we should hold out hope for the rest thought.

I would take Rob over sophomore Ian, although as torch points out, he started showing flashes the final month of that season. Ian was extremely slow on defense... Sodie called him "doughy" To his credit, junior Ian was outstanding. Not sure why he didn't continue to progress his senior year. BTW, Corey's numbers this year are pretty close to sophomore Ian.

[NextYearBill]

Ian choked away a potential NBA draft selection

[Taj79]

But CR's a senior. Yes, CR has improved over his four years here. But enough? I think not. Right now, I'd say GG's starting is a sign of moving forward with an eye to the future. That's not to say CR doesn't have a role on this team. i think he has an important one in terms of countering athletic front lines likes Charlotte, Temple and so on. We need him. But we also need to know what GG provides into the mix for future recruiting.