Big East Break-Up Thread (Merged)

[billikenfan05]

We should let our voices be heard with Biondi(hopefully) in attendence on Saturday.

[kmbilliken]

Does Creighton have an interest in changing conferences? If so, they would seem to be the next choice behind X and Butler. Their market size may not be as big as St. Louis, but I bet they make up for that in ratings compared to SLU. They are also much more likely to bring in tournament money for the conference. If they have an interest in the Big East, they worry me more than Dayton as for as beating us out.

[JettFlight5]

It'd be a lot easier to hire a coach to the BE7 than to the remains of the A-10 or the MVC.

[SShoe]

It'd be a lot easier to hire a coach to the BE7 than to the remains of the A-10 or the MVC.

+1

[gmoser1210]

Response:

1. "Hate" is a strong word and inapplicable in this context. This is a comparison between two competitors.

2. Any claim that SLU can wait for new league expansion is off base. Now is the time to get in this new league. If Xavier, Dayton, and Butler are chosen and not SLU, the nearest A10 school to SLU would be Duquesne in Pittsburgh. SLU has been parked in the A10 since 2005. The A10 has proven to be a good league that has been getting better. But the candidates for the new league do not seem to want to stay behind in the A10.

By this logic, Butler can stay behind in the A10 that it just joined, "be more dominant" in a watered down A10, just like it was in the mid-major Horizon League after all the good teams left the MCC (the Horizon's former name).

3. The #21 media market (St. Louis) is better than the #25 media market. Advantage: SLU.

4. If for whatever reason you are going to state Butler's case on this Billikens.com board, at least state the correct facts. The last head to head meeting between SLU and Butler in men's basketball was on 12/27/03 ('03-'04 season), hence this "millenium" and this decade. SLU won easily 72-54. I was at the game and it was no contest. The difference in level of talent between the two teams was obvious that night. Advantage: SLU.

5. SLU's all-time 16-11 advantage, head to head, vs. Butler is highly relevant. That is the best comparison of all between these two particular schools, head to head competition, especially when they were in the same league. SLU was 12-8 vs. Butler when both were in the MCC (now known as the Horizon League) between the '82-'83 and '90-'91 seasons. That was not the Neanderthal Period, nor the Stone Age. Butler was never a league factor in those days. Rather, Butler was a team that we knew we could usually beat. Adding to the sample size: SLU is 15-10 vs. Butler since 1980. Advantage: SLU.

6. As for more recent Butler NCAA Automatics, those were obtained by winning the mid-major Horizon League Tournament. How many of those automatics would Butler have garnered in a tougher league? The Butler NCAA At Larges were built on a Horizon League resume, meaning regular season Horizon League wins. SLU has been in much tougher conferences than Butler ever since SLU left the MCC after the '90-'91 season. That cannot be reasonably disputed.

On another note, why are you defending Dayton on this Board? Let Dayton defend itself.

Finally, you have no reason to be concerned. Butler appears to be in.

1. You're right. Hate is a strong word. I should have simply asked why you were degrading Butler's reputation.

2. I agree that now is the preferred time to get into the new league, but the simple truth is that it may not happen. If X, Butler, and Dayton are all gone from the A10, travel would absolutely suck for SLU, but that doesn't change the fact that SLU would likely be more dominant in the conference than it has in the past. Your point about Butler becoming more dominant in a watered-down A10 is exactly what happened in the Horizon/Midwestern Collegiate Conference/Midwestern City Conference. Now Butler has a recognizable brand and product that is among the top of non-FBS programs. While the travel would be frustrating, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if SLU did the same thing.

3. The #25 media market (Indianapolis) is in the basketball-infatuated state of Indiana. While the #21 media market has more viewers, it is likely that the #25 media market has more basketball viewers.

4. I did state the correct facts. I stated that the two programs have played each other twice in the current millennium. They played in the fall of 2002 and the fall of 2003. Yes, SLU won the last meeting in a 72-54 blowout. However, Butler won the year before in a 68-46 blowout. Any prior meetings were in the early 90s. Regardless, I still don't see how any of this gives SLU an advantage over Butler in getting into a new conference.

5. I disagree. The comparison you are using is between two programs in the 1980s. Using that time frame, SLU would look better than even Gonzaga. Who to bring into the conference is a business decision. You don't base business decisions on statistics that are 20+ years old.

6. I agree that SLU has been in a much tougher conference than Butler. I would never dispute that. What I dispute is that Butler's success has been a product of its conference affiliation. Few wins in the Horizon League helped Butler's resume, but losses would have been truly detrimental. You ask, "How many of those automatics would Butler have garnered in a tougher league?" The question is moot because the automatic bids were not necessary.. Butler positioned itself to get into the tournament by winning non-conference games against Michigan, Tennessee, Florida State, Gonzaga, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Xavier, UCLA, etc.

On your other note, I wasn't trying to defend Dayton. I was trying to answer the question posed by the original thread's title, "Why Dayton over SLU?". I find it an interesting debate.

Finally, I'm not concerned with getting into a new conference. Whatever will be will be and there's nothing that I can do about it. My post was because it bothers me when I see someone putting down another program using outdated, irrelevant, or incorrect information to back them up. For the record, I cheer for both Butler and SLU and would be making the same type of points if this had happened the other way around on the Butler board. I hope that Butler and SLU both get invited to the new conference.

[JettFlight5]

gmoser...you make some good points, but I don't think in the X/BU/UD scenario SLU stays in the A-10 at all.

[Cowboy]

That is the same way I think it will shake out. 12 teams just makes more sense than 10.

-Bizzle, why does 12 make more sense? If due to SLU being a lock at 12 I agree.

[Cowboy]

Well it figures that when this day arrived, it wasn't going to be easy...because we all know it is hard work being a Billiken fan. A 12 team league, I feel good. A 10-team league, we are sweating it out. It sounds like it could be an epic battle of good vs. evil... Bills vs. sweatervests.

-very well said!!!!

[David King]

Let's end all of the Bruce Pearl talk. He has a show cause penalty for two more seasons which means no one will hire him in that time period.

Good point...How old is Bobby Knight?

[billiken_roy]

-Bizzle, why does 12 make more sense? If due to SLU being a lock at 12 I agree.

for one it balances the conference geographically a lot better.

second, the scheduleing could be a more manageable 16 game schedule with the majority of the games being divisional which makes the travel situation more manageable. instead of an 18 which a ten team all in one conference would likely go towards.

the only advantage i see to a 10 team conference is they get to keep more of the ncaa money rather than split out two more shares.

[slu72]

gmoser...you make some good points, but I don't think in the X/BU/UD scenario SLU stays in the A-10 at all.

Where do we go? Oh, don't tell me... I think I know. My guess is we'd stay to keep the East Coast connection. The bottom line here is SLU needs to do some serious politicking w/ the 7 schools or at least the one's w/ the most sway, which would be Nova, GU, and MU. With GU and MU we've got to pull the Jebbie thing on 'em. My gut says it's not Dayton because of it's closeness to X and overlapping markets. What they do have going for 'em in a big way is the way their fans travel. I went to two games at the Charleston Invitational 3 weeks ago and there were a lot of sweater vests in the stands. If Rickma was still with us, God, rest his soul, we'd be a lock. The Beast would want a well known coach like him in their league. But that's a moot point now. Rick, whisper in God's ear and say, hey, they deserve it.

[DeSmetBilliken]

I would be in favor of any set-up that gets SLU into this conference. My ideal conference from this situation would be the Big East 7, plus SLU, Xavier, Butler, Dayton, and Creighton. That would be the 12 team conference. I like playing Dayton, plus Creighton would be a nice addition.

[slu72]

I would be in favor of any set-up that gets SLU into this conference. My ideal conference from this situation would be the Big East 7, plus SLU, Xavier, Butler, Dayton, and Creighton. That would be the 12 team conference. I like playing Dayton, plus Creighton would be a nice addition.

I think everyone would be over the moon if this happens. The best we can glean from the articles on ESPN, CNNSI, CBS, etc are that it's leaning more toward adding 3 teams. If that's the case, it's gonna be white knuckle time for Billiken, Dayton, and Creighton fans. Butler and X appear to be shoo ins. What ticks me off if we had kept up the momentum from the Spoon years, like X has done since Gillen's days, we'd have already been in the Beast. All we had to do was loosen the purse strings and bought Charlie that damn ice cream cone. Fr. B's tightness w/ hoops until we hired RM may come back to haunt him.

[JettFlight5]

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/collegesports/atlantic_calls_meeting_split_fear_SEbPDk4OGcgHjhwuNROIPO#axzz2EyQDbclQ

The A-10, reacting quickly. Well, not really, but it is a reaction.

[brianstl]

http://www.nypost.co...O#axzz2EyQDbclQ

The A-10, reacting quickly. Well, not really, but it is a reaction.

That Blurb doesn't mention Butler. Intresting. Might mean nothing might mean they will stick with just Catholic schools and bring in Duquesne to add to the Eatern division. That sould mean that the conference could ultimately and a West Coast division a few years down the line.

[jbizzle09]

for one it balances the conference geographically a lot better.

second, the scheduleing could be a more manageable 16 game schedule with the majority of the games being divisional which makes the travel situation more manageable. instead of an 18 which a ten team all in one conference would likely go towards.

the only advantage i see to a 10 team conference is they get to keep more of the ncaa money rather than split out two more shares.

Re: Cowboy's question, I look at it pretty much the same way as Roy just stated.

I would also state that any media contract would probably be more lucrative with a 12 team (or more) conference, due to the additional number of markets. Even with more teams, that contract would most likely be more money per school than with a 10 team conference. And while you don't need to split NCAA money with as many teams staying at 10, if you add solid programs and get one or two more NCAA bids by adding 2 (or more) teams, then you provide a bigger pie to share, even if there are more mouths at the table.

[Band Legend]

I think it appeals to all these Catholic schools to be in an all Catholic league. That is the most compelling reason why SLU goes in instead of Butler or any other private Christian school. That being said, I really wish that Rickma was alive and still coaching here. I really miss the big guy.

[majerus mojo]

If they're going to bring in Creighton, I think it makes a helluva lot more sense if SLU is already in, or in position to join. Leaves them on less of an island as far as geography is concerned... especially with the proposed East/West division splits... I don't see any scenario where this new conference would like to just sit at 10 teams. Maybe for a year, tops. But 12 teams is more than feasible/logical in today's landscape.

[slu72]

Seems to me that the Beast 7 want to go cross country and stay all Catholic. The NY Post is not a rag to just lay stuff out there. And while we're all just speculting here why are the Beast's 7 calling the shots? They can't have a league w/ just 7 teams. Granted they got the GU brand, the MU brand, the Nova brand but beyond that they have little. Who knows maybe the A10 gets on there high horse and says, "Hey, we'd love to have you but on our terms not yours." This is going to be a fun week.

[TJHawk]

If SLU doesn't get in, the first call needs to be to Memphis, Cinn and Temple. They will be scrambling for any league that can give a payout. Maybe a temperary Conference USA like league makes sense. I'd rather see SLU play UCONN, Bearcats and Memphis over being in the MVC.

[Franchise_08]

Right you are TJHawk, MVC sucks behind holes. Anyway, from what the X guy is saying, the BE7 really wants the Saint Louis market which makes me feel better. I still do not get Butler being a lock since they do not meet the ideologies of the other schools.

[slu72]

Right you are TJHawk, MVC sucks behind holes. Anyway, from what the X guy is saying, the BE7 really wants the Saint Louis market which makes me feel better. I still do not get Butler being a lock since they do not meet the ideologies of the other schools.

They meet the ideology of winning, having gone to the final 4 two years in a row and almost beating Duke for the whole enchilada.

[joe_davola]

They meet the ideology of winning, having gone to the final 4 two years in a row and almost beating Duke for the whole enchilada.

I know some feel the coach has nothing to do with the invite, but you add Stevens on top of those appearances and I see why they are a lock. Of course he will get big time offers that will be hard to pass up but he has already proven to be a great coach that is loyal to his program. Adding them to the Big East could give them more consistency and become a top program where Stevens would never even want to leave (exception being somewhere like carolina or Duke). He's also very young and will be around for a long time

[Clock_Tower]

That Blurb doesn't mention Butler. Intresting. Might mean nothing might mean they will stick with just Catholic schools and bring in Duquesne to add to the Eatern division. That sould mean that the conference could ultimately and a West Coast division a few years down the line.

Duquense would add nothing. And dont forget about Notre Dame being added.

[kmbilliken]

Right you are TJHawk, MVC sucks behind holes. Anyway, from what the X guy is saying, the BE7 really wants the Saint Louis market which makes me feel better. I still do not get Butler being a lock since they do not meet the ideologies of the other schools.

Ideology? The only ideology this is about is money.