Couple of Notes

[AnkielBreakers]

I am surprised at two points:

1) No one is blaming SLU for failing to put WR in a position to compete in school. Maybe I am biased, but my time at SLU presented me with textbook examples of administrative inefficiency and incompetency; from faculty and staff treating students like after-thoughts, to the overall system ignoring its problems instead of attacking them. I think as alumni we have to question why one of the most important students on campus was not put in a position to pass his classes. I think when a young man is worth millions of dollars of revenue in the form of licensing, ticket sales, and booster donations to the university, someone at the university should be held accountable for failing to motivate and prepare him for his academic endeavors. Was this something they did not think about until his junior year? I do not think we should ignore this as simply WR being lazy, because I doubt the problem was that simple, he obviously wanted to be at SLU, and that is all anyone can ask of the player, the school has to do better at getting its players through school.

2) Who cares if the assistant coaches are moving on. Lets face it, a hall of fame coach has not been able to make the tournament for the last four years. He is getting paid a million dollars a year. He has to see that something is not working. He may have been pushing these guys out the door. Maybe he is trying to prevent them from losing marks on their reputation by acting like this is a surprise.

[SpencerFilibuster]

I am surprised at two points:

1) No one is blaming SLU for failing to put WR in a position to compete in school. Maybe I am biased, but my time at SLU presented me with textbook examples of administrative inefficiency and incompetency; from faculty and staff treating students like after-thoughts, to the overall system ignoring its problems instead of attacking them. I think as alumni we have to question why one of the most important students on campus was not put in a position to pass his classes. I think when a young man is worth millions of dollars of revenue in the form of licensing, ticket sales, and booster donations to the university, someone at the university should be held accountable for failing to motivate and prepare him for his academic endeavors. Was this something they did not think about until his junior year? I do not think we should ignore this as simply WR being lazy, because I doubt the problem was that simple, he obviously wanted to be at SLU, and that is all anyone can ask of the player, the school has to do better at getting its players through school.

2) Who cares if the assistant coaches are moving on. Lets face it, a hall of fame coach has not been able to make the tournament for the last four years. He is getting paid a million dollars a year. He has to see that something is not working. He may have been pushing these guys out the door. Maybe he is trying to prevent them from losing marks on their reputation by acting like this is a surprise.

I am also surprised to see your two points being made

[SLU_Nick]

I am also surprised to see your two points being made

1) At some point a student as to be accountable. College is not high school. You are not entitled to a degree (at least not at SLU)

2) 10% chance this is the case. Wishful thinking defintitely...we will see who comes in to replace them, that might give us a better indication.

-Nick

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

I am surprised at two points:

1) No one is blaming SLU for failing to put WR in a position to compete in school. Maybe I am biased, but my time at SLU presented me with textbook examples of administrative inefficiency and incompetency; from faculty and staff treating students like after-thoughts, to the overall system ignoring its problems instead of attacking them. I think as alumni we have to question why one of the most important students on campus was not put in a position to pass his classes. I think when a young man is worth millions of dollars of revenue in the form of licensing, ticket sales, and booster donations to the university, someone at the university should be held accountable for failing to motivate and prepare him for his academic endeavors. Was this something they did not think about until his junior year? I do not think we should ignore this as simply WR being lazy, because I doubt the problem was that simple, he obviously wanted to be at SLU, and that is all anyone can ask of the player, the school has to do better at getting its players through school.

2) Who cares if the assistant coaches are moving on. Lets face it, a hall of fame coach has not been able to make the tournament for the last four years. He is getting paid a million dollars a year. He has to see that something is not working. He may have been pushing these guys out the door. Maybe he is trying to prevent them from losing marks on their reputation by acting like this is a surprise.

2) I think Majerus just needed more space on the bench to sit down.

[Billboy1]

I do not understand how schools with higher academic standards, e.g. Georgetown, Duke, are able to have these great basketball players get in and stay in school. Not all are Einsteins. It appears from information on this board and other places that these schools have "special" programs for some of their athletes. SLU needs to take a look at these programs (academically) to see how they could get these players more in tune to a program that would help them succeed both on and off the court.

[waldo027]

The assistant coaches are paid employees. RM doesn't need to "push them out" like he supposedly does with all the players that transfer. He can just fire them.

[Pirahna]

I am surprised at two points:

1) No one is blaming SLU for failing to put WR in a position to compete in school. Maybe I am biased, but my time at SLU presented me with textbook examples of administrative inefficiency and incompetency; from faculty and staff treating students like after-thoughts, to the overall system ignoring its problems instead of attacking them. I think as alumni we have to question why one of the most important students on campus was not put in a position to pass his classes. I think when a young man is worth millions of dollars of revenue in the form of licensing, ticket sales, and booster donations to the university, someone at the university should be held accountable for failing to motivate and prepare him for his academic endeavors. Was this something they did not think about until his junior year? I do not think we should ignore this as simply WR being lazy, because I doubt the problem was that simple, he obviously wanted to be at SLU, and that is all anyone can ask of the player, the school has to do better at getting its players through school.

2) Who cares if the assistant coaches are moving on. Lets face it, a hall of fame coach has not been able to make the tournament for the last four years. He is getting paid a million dollars a year. He has to see that something is not working. He may have been pushing these guys out the door. Maybe he is trying to prevent them from losing marks on their reputation by acting like this is a surprise.

If WR wanted to be at SLU he would have showed up to classes more than once a week. Teachers are a little more concerned with a student when they show the initiative to at least go to class. It seems like you feel basketball players at SLU and are a commodity to just play basketball. That may be true at some schools but SLU is a whole different ball game in that regard. As far as motivating WR, the old adage, "You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink" certainly applies here. SLU gave him ample amounts of opportunities to succeed and he didn't take advantage of them.

[For-DaLove]

Anyone who blames SLU for Willie's academic problems needs to re-evaluate the situation. The administration gave him ever chance possible to succeed. People never want to mention the fact that he attended 5 high schools, and probably didnt learn very much at them.

[slu72]

Anyone who blames SLU for Willie's academic problems needs to re-evaluate the situation. The administration gave him ever chance possible to succeed. People never want to mention the fact that he attended 5 high schools, and probably didnt learn very much at them.

That's probably the main reason WR couldn't hack the academics, ie he had little or no educational foundation. Coupled with the idea that athletes get preferential treatment re academics probably led to the final result. At the state schools, read primarily BCS'ers, they offer a lot of different and easier majors than SLU offers. I had a friend who's son went to a Big 10 State Univ on a football scholie and majored in popular culture. Subjects included modern cinema, rock and roll vs hip hop, fashion fads, etc. Plus all the non electives were largely math, english, and history you'd take your JR yr of high school. In any event it didn't matter he was going to make his grades. That's the difference I think at SLU. The school will make exceptions for admission but once here you've got to do it the old fashioned way, earn it. I like that approach better than the free ride.

[moytoy12]

That's probably the main reason WR couldn't hack the academics, ie he had little or no educational foundation. Coupled with the idea that athletes get preferential treatment re academics probably led to the final result. At the state schools, read primarily BCS'ers, they offer a lot of different and easier majors than SLU offers. I had a friend who's son went to a Big 10 State Univ on a football scholie and majored in popular culture. Subjects included modern cinema, rock and roll vs hip hop, fashion fads, etc. Plus all the non electives were largely math, english, and history you'd take your JR yr of high school. In any event it didn't matter he was going to make his grades. That's the difference I think at SLU. The school will make exceptions for admission but once here you've got to do it the old fashioned way, earn it. I like that approach better than the free ride.

We talk a lot about the majors that SLU doesn't have that other schools do have and how that negatively affects our ability to "hide" athletes. While I understand that we have fewer majors, I think the bigger issue is SLU's lack of classes compared to state schools. We have the communications and marketing majors that aren't overly difficult; however, there is a smaller universe of core classes to choose from to support that major. This results in fewer easy classes. And if you're in the arts and sciences school, you have 15 hours of philosophy/theology to contend with (at least that's how it was back in the mid 90's).

When there are fewer classes, there are fewer professors, which might result in fewer athlete-friendly professors/classes. I'm not saying that the faculty hates our athletes. Also, with a smaller professor population it is easier to standout as the athlete-friendly professor, which might result in some negative peer pressure.

I don't necessarily think having the "right" majors is the issue. I think the lack of friendly classes at the 100 and 200 level is the issue, which is further hampered by a faculty that is probably less friendly to athletes than a state school.

[billiken_roy]

That's probably the main reason WR couldn't hack the academics, ie he had little or no educational foundation. Coupled with the idea that athletes get preferential treatment re academics probably led to the final result. At the state schools, read primarily BCS'ers, they offer a lot of different and easier majors than SLU offers. I had a friend who's son went to a Big 10 State Univ on a football scholie and majored in popular culture. Subjects included modern cinema, rock and roll vs hip hop, fashion fads, etc. Plus all the non electives were largely math, english, and history you'd take your JR yr of high school. In any event it didn't matter he was going to make his grades. That's the difference I think at SLU. The school will make exceptions for admission but once here you've got to do it the old fashioned way, earn it. I like that approach better than the free ride.

this is a very good post slu72. while it is extremely disappointing that we lost one of the best if not the best inside player slu has had in a couple of decades, i think it is refreshing to know that saint louis universtiy hasnt lowered itself to a level that our athletes are just there as athletes and are required to be students and citizens. imo saint louis university did the right things dealing with willie reed and if anything went far and beyond expectations with him.

a certain regular poster here (who shall remain anonomous, he knows who he is) had an exchange with me early last season outside the parking garage after a game and he assured me that first game second semester willie reed would be back. i told him impossible. willie reed had serious issues some of them academic and if willie reed was back as he predicted, that would only show that saint louis university had become just another D1 school that cared more about their basketball team than their students and would do whatever was necessary regardless of rules and ethics to have success.

i have to be honest that in the back of my mind i was questioning if slu would stand up for what was right or what would win basketball games. i say we did the right thing. yes it set our basketball program back. but in the long run, we as alumni, boosters and fans of school and the billikens can be proud that slu did the right thing unlike far too many other "academic institutions".

[cheeseman]

We talk a lot about the majors that SLU doesn't have that other schools do have and how that negatively affects our ability to "hide" athletes. While I understand that we have fewer majors, I think the bigger issue is SLU's lack of classes compared to state schools. We have the communications and marketing majors that aren't overly difficult; however, there is a smaller universe of core classes to choose from to support that major. This results in fewer easy classes. And if you're in the arts and sciences school, you have 15 hours of philosophy/theology to contend with (at least that's how it was back in the mid 90's).

When there are fewer classes, there are fewer professors, which might result in fewer athlete-friendly professors/classes. I'm not saying that the faculty hates our athletes. Also, with a smaller professor population it is easier to standout as the athlete-friendly professor, which might result in some negative peer pressure.

I don't necessarily think having the "right" majors is the issue. I think the lack of friendly classes at the 100 and 200 level is the issue, which is further hampered by a faculty that is probably less friendly to athletes than a state school.

You make a very good point. However, if we have fewer "right" majors then we also will indirectly have fewer classes so which comes first - the chicken or the egg?

[moytoy12]

You make a very good point. However, if we have fewer "right" majors then we also will indirectly have fewer classes so which comes first - the chicken or the egg?

Good point. My response would be that even if you include easier majors and theoretically easier 300 and 400 level classes, the universe of 100 and 200 level classes will remain relatively static and small. SLU will still have a relatively tougher foundation for any major (e.g. Theology/philosophy requirements for an A&S major).

[AnkielBreakers]

Good point. My response would be that even if you include easier majors and theoretically easier 300 and 400 level classes, the universe of 100 and 200 level classes will remain relatively static and small. SLU will still have a relatively tougher foundation for any major (e.g. Theology/philosophy requirements for an A&S major).

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

[moytoy12]

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

Why would you assume does not have enough tutoring/assistance in place?

There is speculation on this board that WR had an assistant walking him to every class. If that is true, then I would have to believe they are providing other detailed assistance.

Some kids are not cut out for college for any number of reasons and it might have nothing to do with the resources available to them. I don't hold anything against them.

[moytoy12]

Good point. My response would be that even if you include easier majors and theoretically easier 300 and 400 level classes, the universe of 100 and 200 level classes will remain relatively static and small. SLU will still have a relatively tougher foundation for any major (e.g. Theology/philosophy requirements for an A&S major).

To follow up on my point above, SLU's relatively small basic course load is seemingly highlighted by the difficulty we have in qualifying juco transfers. My understanding is that in a lot of cases, potential jucos do not have classes that transfer. Presumably, the ineligible classes do not fit into the requirements for a major. Whereas, other schools have a broader foundation for their majors and have the ability to accept a diverse set of juco coursework.

Again, I'm not sure our universe of majors is the main problem.

[davidnark]

I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Unless things have dramatically changed in the last 15-20 years, basketball players at SLU have huge advantageous given to them. I won't get into details, but it would certainly surprise the self-righteous crowd on this board. The problem with SLU is that it tries to play it both ways and doesn't necessarily have consistent or logic in how it approaches these issues.

[bk18]

Unless things have dramatically changed in the last 15-20 years, basketball players at SLU have huge advantageous given to them. I won't get into details, but it would certainly surprise the self-righteous crowd on this board. The problem with SLU is that it tries to play it both ways and doesn't necessarily have consistent or logic in how it approaches these issues.

I think things have changed. Basketball players don't have it much better than any other students. But the expectations aren't to get straight A's. They just have to pass and how hard is that when you show up to class, take notes, and try your best outside the classroom.

[billiken_roy]

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

ankiel, willie reed IS THE EXAMPLE/PROOF that saint louis university does all it can to assist their athletes in their academic journey. Willie as a scholarshipped athlete made it through 2 years of saint louis university. he had at his disposal tutors, study labs, etc that the saint louis university everyday student doesnt get. they were able to get stranded in philly for over a week and make it through a semester. honestly, i cant imagine missing a week of classes at saint louis university when i was a student there and thinking i still pass those classes. yet with the tutorial and study aid assistance, our athletes prevailed.

it was only when Willie was asked to prove he could be a slu student on his own, that he failed in less than a semester. dont blame saint louis university. blame willie reed for blowing his opportunity by getting expelled from school.

[SpencerFilibuster]

When I was there, at West Pine Gym, the athletes could go in anytime during the day and there was a study hall type of room. The coaches also urged the athletes to use the department-provided tutors.

make the teachers come to him

I think this is an unreasonable expectation

[willie]

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

Really good post. One of Lee Winfield'jobs was to walk Melvin to class.

[willie]

ankiel, willie reed IS THE EXAMPLE/PROOF that saint louis university does all it can to assist their athletes in their academic journey. Willie as a scholarshipped athlete made it through 2 years of saint louis university. he had at his disposal tutors, study labs, etc that the saint louis university everyday student doesnt get. they were able to get stranded in philly for over a week and make it through a semester. honestly, i cant imagine missing a week of classes at saint louis university when i was a student there and thinking i still pass those classes. yet with the tutorial and study aid assistance, our athletes prevailed.

it was only when Willie was asked to prove he could be a slu student on his own, that he failed in less than a semester. dont blame saint louis university. blame willie reed for blowing his opportunity by getting expelled from school.

We failed Willie.

I

[For-DaLove]

To be honest, my point really isn't to say that SLU should make things easier. It has been recently documented that Stanford makes it easier on its athletes, but I would assume that SLU does as well. The difference is, Stanford gets its players through. I assume that SLU does not have enough tutoring and assistance in place to help its athletes. In particular, if one player is very important to your school, then get him round the clock tutoring, make the teachers come to him. Think outside the box, and don't simply say that he should go to class. If a player does not have the academics required to survive, then find a way to get him declared learning disabled, so that you can get him extra attention. Invest time and especially money in that players education.

Prove to me that this already happens or that it cannot be allowed due to NCAA regulations.

Just because someone is an idiot it doesn't mean they have a learning disability. There are PLENTY of tutors/assistance in place for the players, and Willie received more attention. Dont make dumb assumptions if you don't know anything about what actually goes on.

[billiken_roy]

We failed Willie.

I

explain how slu failed?

[willie]

explain how slu failed?

We hired an employee and then did not give him the support to do his job. Willie would not of flunked out of Duke.