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OT: Midtown Development


Pistol

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Cincinnati is one of the teams that applied for MLS along with St. Louis the other day. FC Cincinnati currently plays in Nippert Stadium, home of the UC Bearcats football team. The stadium is currently being redone at the field level to comply with MLS surface area requirements, which cuts out some corner seats from the existing layout.

Anyway, MLS wants a new downtown stadium. FC Cincinnati is routinely drawing 20,000+ plus fans in a stadium just a couple miles north of downtown (in terms of geography, turn STL 90 degrees and UC:Downtown as SLU:Downtown). Sure, they'd technically be a tenant, but the neighborhood around UC is many times more densely populated and walkable than downtown. So if MLS actually considers their bid and takes a look at the factors here, it actually makes a lot more sense not to build a new stadium and they're inheriting a strong fanbase in the middle of the city, benefiting from its location on the campus of the second biggest school in Ohio.

Midtown doesn't have the same advantage, I know, but my point is that they need to be able to make exceptions to the downtown-only stadium requirement. Hell, they painted themselves into a corner by encouraging earlier MLS teams to build in the suburbs, which was a horrible idea. Suburban stadiums suck.

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2 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Cincinnati is one of the teams that applied for MLS along with St. Louis the other day. FC Cincinnati currently plays in Nippert Stadium, home of the UC Bearcats football team. The stadium is currently being redone at the field level to comply with MLS surface area requirements, which cuts out some corner seats from the existing layout.

Anyway, MLS wants a new downtown stadium. FC Cincinnati is routinely drawing 20,000+ plus fans in a stadium just a couple miles north of downtown (in terms of geography, turn STL 90 degrees and UC:Downtown as SLU:Downtown). Sure, they'd technically be a tenant, but the neighborhood around UC is many times more densely populated and walkable than downtown. So if MLS actually considers their bid and takes a look at the factors here, it actually makes a lot more sense not to build a new stadium and they're inheriting a strong fanbase in the middle of the city, benefiting from its location on the campus of the second biggest school in Ohio.

Midtown doesn't have the same advantage, I know, but my point is that they need to be able to make exceptions to the downtown-only stadium requirement. Hell, they painted themselves into a corner by encouraging earlier MLS teams to build in the suburbs, which was a horrible idea. Suburban stadiums suck.

That ship has sailed. Not saying you are wrong, it is just the reality of the situation. It is Union Station or bust for SC STL.

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4 minutes ago, ARon said:

That ship has sailed. Not saying you are wrong, it is just the reality of the situation. It is Union Station or bust for SC STL.

Oh, I understand. I just think the Union Station location is an interesting choice, given that it's on the fringe of downtown, which has minimal pedestrian traffic and amenities right now, nor is it in an established population-heavy neighborhood, like the one that could work for Cincinnati. I hope it's the sort of project that manages to both help density and size of "downtown" as we think of it, but I also know that stadiums are not a magic bullet in that regard and that the Dome, for example, did very little to help its immediate surroundings.

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11 minutes ago, brianstl said:

It isn't a pedestrian friendly location for workers or residents.  That area isn't pedestrian friendly at all.

It's pretty much a dead zone.  On the plus side, with the old ramps removed, the parking lots north of Union Station will become a lot more attractive for redevelopment.  It would be nice to see Paul McKee do something - anything - related to his pie-in-the-sky plans in that area.

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20 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

It's pretty much a dead zone.  On the plus side, with the old ramps removed, the parking lots north of Union Station will become a lot more attractive for redevelopment.  It would be nice to see Paul McKee do something - anything - related to his pie-in-the-sky plans in that area.

I actually think using the stadium location to help Union Station is a smart and a worthy idea.  To make downtown as whole work you need something in Union Station successfelly functioning to help bridge downtown to the Grand Center/Wells Fargo/SLU/Cortex areas. This will become even more true if/when the USPS moves their local headquarters operations out of that area.  

I just don't get why they keep trying to sell that the location was picked because it was downtown that is what the MLS wants.  It was picked to help the ownership make money in another one of their ventures.

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1 hour ago, brianstl said:

 

I actually think using the stadium location to help Union Station is a smart and a worthy idea.  To make downtown as whole work you need something in Union Station successfelly functioning to help bridge downtown to the Grand Center/Wells Fargo/SLU/Cortex areas. This will become even more true if/when the USPS moves their local headquarters operations out of that area.  

I just don't get why they keep trying to sell that the location was picked because it was downtown that is what the MLS wants.  It was picked to help the ownership make money in another one of their ventures.

+1

And I just think the synergy of the location by SLU, Cortex and the Grove, together with the Foundry (?) food mall and IKEA and all the other development going on to fill in the gap between Kingshighway and Grand, along with close proximity to both the downtown and CWE  and yet still off Hwy 40 would make this a better location.  

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8 hours ago, brianstl said:

To make downtown as whole work you need something in Union Station successfelly functioning to help bridge downtown to the Grand Center/Wells Fargo/SLU/Cortex areas. This will become even more true if/when the USPS moves their local headquarters operations out of that area.  

This would be true if it hadn't already been proven to be false -- more than once. Kielvistrade really helped Union Station, let alone the area immediately adjacent to it (Kielvistrade), didn't it? Or did Union Station die after Kiel was renovated, and is there a bar/restaurant space directly catercorner that's been vacant for what, 10 years?

And let's not forget all the development that sprung up around the Dome after it was built. (Or should we remember that building it pushed Tony's out of a 40-year location, and left us without a viable bus station, and knocked down a fully functional 20-some-story hotel and area around it that kept the north part of downtown connected?)

Then there was Busch II, which ended up assimilating all the land within 200 yards of it and actually destroyed small business by making it illegal to sell stuff in proximity. 

Stadiums and arenas do not spur development. Stadiums and arenas are not "multipurpose." Stadiums and arenas are where sports teams play between three and 25 percent of the year, leaving them vacant and unused for the other 275 to 350 days of the year. 

BTW I'd actually be happy to see a soccer stadium built at either location (even though the Foundry plan is dead). But only because I'd like to have a local professional soccer team. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am sorry if this is a stupid question but with the new Ikea effect on SLU and the new Armory project, will people start to view Downtown differently? Would these new projects connect to expand what is perceived as the heart of the city, especially if that new MLS stadium is built near SLU? 

Also I heard from the former property owner at Diabolitos and its going to turn into new parking and dorms for SLU, and Humps is not going to be a bar again as of now. Thats the word. Also extremely unfortunate that the properties near the shack haven't turned into anything, it could be great for SLU and honestly looks bad if property is abandoned right next to campus

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1 hour ago, BigMouthBilliken said:

Not sure if mentioned but Diablito's on campus is going out of business and I think last day open is Feb 14th or 15th.  Add it to the list of empty buildings on campus (Humps, the Shack, Diabs, that empty building next to shack, empty building next to diabs)

Diablitos is going to be demolished for more student housing. At least that's what they posted on their Facebook. 

Edit: I should have read all of GD2013 post.

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8 hours ago, Glorydays2013 said:

If people were confused by my previous post, the MLS stadium near slu was not really considered because it wasn't considered "downtown enough". With the huge new projects around that area being built I was wondering if they gave it another shot looking to the future 

Regardless of the amount of development near SLU, it will never be "downtown." (Except, of course, to a certain segment of the population that lives past 270 and only goes to the real downtown for professional sports, fireworks or Ballpark Village.)

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Agree that is exactly the point Torch and Bonwich. To develop the city they need places where people work and live in or want to live in, not sports arenas, stadiums, or concert and event halls that people just go to for a specific event and then head out back home outside the city. 

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5 hours ago, Old guy said:

Agree that is exactly the point Torch and Bonwich. To develop the city they need places where people work and live in or want to live in, not sports arenas, stadiums, or concert and event halls that people just go to for a specific event and then head out back home outside the city. 

In order to to get to that point, they need to curb some of the crime, specifically the violent crime.

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5 hours ago, Old guy said:

Agree that is exactly the point Torch and Bonwich. To develop the city they need places where people work and live in or want to live in, not sports arenas, stadiums, or concert and event halls that people just go to for a specific event and then head out back home outside the city. 

If you want to be a big league city that recruits companies ( to increase jobs and population), you need these things, too. Whether they should be tax payer funded is an honest debate, but StL needs these things to stop the decline of jobs not being created  

Young people are big on living downtown until they have kids and want good schools. Then, many of them head west or south of the city limits. 

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On 2/2/2017 at 9:58 PM, bonwich said:

This would be true if it hadn't already been proven to be false -- more than once. Kielvistrade really helped Union Station, let alone the area immediately adjacent to it (Kielvistrade), didn't it? Or did Union Station die after Kiel was renovated, and is there a bar/restaurant space directly catercorner that's been vacant for what, 10 years?

And let's not forget all the development that sprung up around the Dome after it was built. (Or should we remember that building it pushed Tony's out of a 40-year location, and left us without a viable bus station, and knocked down a fully functional 20-some-story hotel and area around it that kept the north part of downtown connected?)

Then there was Busch II, which ended up assimilating all the land within 200 yards of it and actually destroyed small business by making it illegal to sell stuff in proximity. 

Stadiums and arenas do not spur development. Stadiums and arenas are not "multipurpose." Stadiums and arenas are where sports teams play between three and 25 percent of the year, leaving them vacant and unused for the other 275 to 350 days of the year. 

BTW I'd actually be happy to see a soccer stadium built at either location (even though the Foundry plan is dead). But only because I'd like to have a local professional soccer team. 

Somebody better tell Stan Kroenke because he is investing billions in LA for just this purpose.

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1 hour ago, cheeseman said:

Somebody better tell Stan Kroenke because he is investing billions in LA for just this purpose.

"In fact, Rams owner Stan Kroenke's new sports facility is a fairly new addition to a huge mixed-use development that has been in the works for more than a decade."

http://la.curbed.com/2016/5/18/11697054/inglewood-rams-development-hollywood-park

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2 hours ago, slu72 fan said:

If you want to be a big league city that recruits companies ( to increase jobs and population), you need these things, too. Whether they should be tax payer funded is an honest debate, but StL needs these things to stop the decline of jobs not being created  

Young people are big on living downtown until they have kids and want good schools. Then, many of them head west or south of the city limits. 

I think you are dreaming theory SLU 72, as Bonwich said this has been proven not to be true. For example let's compare St. Louis downtown with Boston's downtown. Boston has professional sports teams in abundance (Patriots, Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics) but no stadiums or arenas, as far as I know, are downtown. The Patriots play in Foxborough 20 miles south of downtown, the Sox play in Back Bay, not the downtown area, I have no idea where the other teams play. The downtown area caters to businesses, and commerce primarily and it is really alive and vibrant (and very expensive). The only event area they have near downtown is the theater district which is a real problem getting into and out of but which  survives and attracts people to it. St. Louis likes to pile stadiums and sports arenas downtown creating traffic logjams and large areas that are unused for a significant portion of the year. Some of these arenas (Scottrade Center) have been successful holding music and performance events, but mostly they are empty off season. I think Bonwich is correct. 

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45 minutes ago, Old guy said:

I think you are dreaming theory SLU 72, as Bonwich said this has been proven not to be true. For example let's compare St. Louis downtown with Boston's downtown. Boston has professional sports teams in abundance (Patriots, Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics) but no stadiums or arenas, as far as I know, are downtown. The Patriots play in Foxborough 20 miles south of downtown, the Sox play in Back Bay, not the downtown area, I have no idea where the other teams play. The downtown area caters to businesses, and commerce primarily and it is really alive and vibrant (and very expensive). The only event area they have near downtown is the theater district which is a real problem getting into and out of but which  survives and attracts people to it. St. Louis likes to pile stadiums and sports arenas downtown creating traffic logjams and large areas that are unused for a significant portion of the year. Some of these arenas (Scottrade Center) have been successful holding music and performance events, but mostly they are empty off season. I think Bonwich is correct. 

The Red Sox and the BB and Hockey teams play in the city.  I have read all the studies on this topic also but honestly, the issue is not where the stadiums are built but that they are built.  There are benefits to these teams being in a city that often are not measured by these studies.  They also assume that everybody will just spend the money they spend on sports somewhere else in the city - this not necessarily true - for example the money I spend for Billiken tix and the donation I make each year would not just be spent on movies or eating out anyway.  Now whether tax money should be used or not is another discussion entirely which is really where most of these studies start their metrics of if it is worthwhile or not.  If not having these teams were of no or little benefit then see what would happen if the Cardinals left for another town or the Yankees moved - my point is those teams like many others would be sorely missed.

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