Recruiting to SLU today

[billiken_roy]

...but you"re a fan of such a bad person? Why support him if you feel this way?

that makes no sense. i said i apprciate his tactical coaching skills. if i was a fan of his i would reccomend him to people as a coach.

[kevinfootes]

that makes no sense. i said i apprciate his tactical coaching skills. if i was a fan of his i would reccomend him to people as a coach.

Okay, so why are you going to see a guy that you dislike so much? Your appreciation of his tactical skills must outweigh your dislike for him.

[billiken_roy]

Okay, so why are you going to see a guy that you dislike so much? Your appreciation of his tactical skills must outweigh your dislike for him.

you go to the billiken games to watch the coach? i dont. i watch the players, the competition, the game. the coach is just about the last reason to or not to watch a basketball game.

[NashvilleBilliken]

i would not recommend him to someone i knew to play for him at this time based on the way he handled himself this past season. so buy what you want. that's your problem.

Roy, if you would not recommend a player attend SLU, you are not a fan of the program. That is awful and a damn shame. No matter how you slice it, if you are going to steer kids to another school (i.e. tell them NOT to play for Rick...the coach of the Billikens), you need to give up your Billiken Blue and stop touting yourself as a fan. We don't need that.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, if you would not recommend a player attend SLU, you are not a fan of the program. That is awful and a damn shame. No matter how you slice it, if you are going to steer kids to another school (i.e. tell them NOT to play for Rick...the coach of the Billikens), you need to give up your Billiken Blue and stop touting yourself as a fan. We don't need that.

first off, no recruit asks. and second, i answered the question from big bills fan honestly. again, no kid has ever asked and i doubt they will.

just because i am not a fan of our coach now doesnt mean i dont love saint louis university and the players. i.e i plan to continue to cheer for the billikens first and foremost.

[BIG BILL FAN]

that makes no sense. i said i apprciate his tactical coaching skills. if i was a fan of his i would reccomend him to people as a coach.

Roy, don't you remember all of your critical posts about RM's coaching style at the beginning of the season? In fact, you claimed that he costs us games because of the style of play he was coaching.

[billiken_roy]

Roy, don't you remember all of your critical posts about RM's coaching style at the beginning of the season? In fact, you claimed that he costs us games because of the style of play he was coaching.

and he fixed it starting with the siu game forward and i gave him full credit thereafter.

[William Iken]

first off, no recruit asks. and second, i answered the question from big bills fan honestly. again, no kid has ever asked and i doubt they will.

just because i am not a fan of our coach now doesnt mean i dont love saint louis university and the players. i.e i plan to continue to cheer for the billikens first and foremost.

I'm not sure that's the point...

I may be the only one to see where you're coming from (in that RM is not the coach for everyone) but I still don't see why you wouldn't recommend the Bills to a recruit who would thrive under RM's style of coaching?

[BIG BILL FAN]

hahaha....funny stuff. Internet urban legend man.

mm

Personally, I'm not interested in your insights to college basketball. Your elitest attitude and arrogance are evident in everything you post. Please don't try to tell us that cheating isn't rampant among the top programs ( including Kentucky).

[slu72]

You know why it's like that '72? It's because of the FANS. The FANS are what make UK what it is. It's the FANS that are die hard. It's the FANS that have Josh all up in arms about the program. It's the FANS (some of which loosely call themselves "reporters") that badgered Josh 10 times a day for interviews. That's what SLU needs to become. Where is this little engine that could mentality coming from? It's sounds like YOU are the one blinded by the big lights. Perception is reality, man. If our fans think we're small time, that's what everybody else thinks. Frankly, this is what you and a lot of other people were throwing at me when I tried to defend our previous coach. I guess I've seen the light. Kinda ironic, isn't it?

Ville, I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. There are not a lot of schools with fans like UK, simply because there are not a lot of schools with the history of UK. I think you have to realize people in KY didn't have a lot to cheer for when UK hoops took hold. And it's continued it's hold. I'll bet UK hoops comes up daily on most of the state's sports stations. Daily. Just like Ohio State football is mentioned every day in Columbus and elsewhere around the state. Keep in mind KY's a pretty rural place. UK basketball is inbred in them folks. Not so for schools like SLU. Maybe had we sustained the tradition we had back in the late 40's and 50's, we'd have maniacal fans as well. As for you defending our previous coach, I don't know how that relates to this post about KY. Do I think we're small time? We weren't back in the early 90's. We were big time in STL. Unfortunately, we couldn't sustain it like an X or GZ did. Whose fan bases by the way are no match for UK either. But we could be semi big time again with RM on board. UB was never going to make us big time. In fact, the group known as the Anti Brads, were being castigated on here for not being real FANS because we bashed him relentlessly. What do you think UK fans would have been posting about UB after 5 years of nothing basketball? He would have been lucky to get by his third year without being tarred and feathered. Same holds true for Indiana and NC fans. They are state schools. They have everyone from the local field hand to the mega bucks business man in their camp. That's why they're elite. We're never going to reach that level. We can capture the St.L market and keep far away alums like me in the fold, but are you going to ever make Billiken fans out of the truck driver from Poplar Bluff, the pharmacist from Joplin, or the neuro surgeon from KC? Not likely. Hell, Mizzery can't even do it, and they're supposedly big time. These fan bases develop over long periods of time. They become part of the state's culture. Again, I have no idea as to how this relates to UB and your defense of him. I guess what you're saying is, "if we had real fans like UK, UB could have succeded at SLU"? Real fans would have made his life a living hell with some of the recruits he delivered SLU. Plus if we had a fan base like UK, UB would never have even got in the door for an interview. Rick Pitino or John Calipari would be our HC.

[courtside]

i wouldnt have my kid play for bob knight either, but i recognize he knows basketball.

That isn't your decision. That is your kid's decision.

[kevinfootes]

I'm not sure that's the point...

I may be the only one to see where you're coming from (in that RM is not the coach for everyone) but I still don't see why you wouldn't recommend the Bills to a recruit who would thrive under RM's style of coaching?

roy didn't post that RM wasn't the right coach for every player. He posted that he wouldn't recommend RM to ANY players. There is a huge difference between those comments.

[slu72]

roy didn't post that RM wasn't the right coach for every player. He posted that he wouldn't recommend RM to ANY players. There is a huge difference between those comments.

It seems to me, Broy's standard for coaches at SLU is pretty high. While he respects Spoon's and RM's tactical abilities and knowledge of the game, he seems to think both have little character value and are more men of style than substance. It's funny, that he's been most critical of these two coaches. Spoon was successful here for the most part. The book is still out on RM, but he's been very successful elsewhere and is making moves, that appear on the surface, will take us to a higher level. Yet, he does admire both Zo and UB. Both men struggled here in that neither could seem to deliver the caliber of players that we needed to crack the top 50. But both posessed character traits Broy admires. In contrast to Spoon and RM, Zo and UB were likeable stand up guys. Broy would love to sit down and have a few beers with them. He wouldn't even want to be in the same bar with Spoon or RM. Leads me to believe Broy's a throwback. He hangs onto the belief that college sports should be pure like it was back in the 50's and 60's. When coaches were like surrogate dads to their players. They took the blame for losses. They gave their players the credit for wins. Instead of a kick in the a** for losing, the player got praise for trying hard. Sadly, those days are long gone. This is now a cut throat business with some pretty big $$$ involved. From all that's been said or written about RM, I'm not sure I'd want to go drinking with him either. But I have no objection with the fact he's coaching my alma mater. As for recommending a player to him, in a heartbeat to any kid who was mentally strong enough to withstand his approach and passion for winning games. Look, RM's methods are are pretty common among today's successful HC's. Sure, there are exceptions who still win, but most programs with winning records and multiple post season appearances have HC's who are working the tails off their players, culling out the kids who won't make a contribution, and berating them in public forums. Hell, Billy the kid, publicly threw every Freshman he had under the bus after FL failed to make the NCAA's. Is it right? No, but it's the way it is these days. Simple as that.

[bauman]

It seems to me, Broy's standard for coaches at SLU is pretty high. While he respects Spoon's and RM's tactical abilities and knowledge of the game, he seems to think both have little character value and are more men of style than substance. It's funny, that he's been most critical of these two coaches. Spoon was successful here for the most part. The book is still out on RM, but he's been very successful elsewhere and is making moves, that appear on the surface, will take us to a higher level. Yet, he does admire both Zo and UB. Both men struggled here in that neither could seem to deliver the caliber of players that we needed to crack the top 50. But both posessed character traits Broy admires. In contrast to Spoon and RM, Zo and UB were likeable stand up guys. Broy would love to sit down and have a few beers with them. He wouldn't even want to be in the same bar with Spoon or RM. Leads me to believe Broy's a throwback. He hangs onto the belief that college sports should be pure like it was back in the 50's and 60's. When coaches were like surrogate dads to their players. They took the blame for losses. They gave their players the credit for wins. Instead of a kick in the a** for losing, the player got praise for trying hard. Sadly, those days are long gone. This is now a cut throat business with some pretty big $$$ involved. From all that's been said or written about RM, I'm not sure I'd want to go drinking with him either. But I have no objection with the fact he's coaching my alma mater. As for recommending a player to him, in a heartbeat to any kid who was mentally strong enough to withstand his approach and passion for winning games. Look, RM's methods are are pretty common among today's successful HC's. Sure, there are exceptions who still win, but most programs with winning records and multiple post season appearances have HC's who are working the tails off their players, culling out the kids who won't make a contribution, and berating them in public forums. Hell, Billy the kid, publicly threw every Freshman he had under the bus after FL failed to make the NCAA's. Is it right? No, but it's the way it is these days. Simple as that.

Add to the list of winning, butt-kicking HCs, Calhoun at UCONN and Crean at IU. I'd take either one.

[3star_recruit]

I'd take Bo Ryan, Ben Howland or Mark Few. It's all a matter of taste.

[slu72]

I'd take Bo Ryan, Ben Howland or Mark Few. It's all a matter of taste.

3 Star, RM's methods of motivation may be different, but you know as well as anyone, the kids that play for these 3 are busting their butts year round with weight room, techniques, skills, etc. They must be putting in the work to have those programs at such a high level. I don't think RM's asking anything different from our kids. The difference is the way he's asking them. Based on the lack of development of a lot of SLU players under both 'Zo (exception being Mo Jeffers) and UB (exceptions being Josh Fisher and M. Perry, TL's shot), I don't think either one was pushing the kids as hard as the nice guy coaches on your list. They have to in order to stay competitive. Our list of players that showed little or no progress from the day they showed up on campus to their graduation day is a long one. I'm not giving credit to UB for IV, since I think that came the summer after his Sophomore year.

[Pistol]

3 Star, RM's methods of motivation may be different, but you know as well as anyone, the kids that play for these 3 are busting their butts year round with weight room, techniques, skills, etc. They must be putting in the work to have those programs at such a high level. I don't think RM's asking anything different from our kids. The difference is the way he's asking them. Based on the lack of development of a lot of SLU players under both 'Zo (exception being Mo Jeffers) and UB (exceptions being Josh Fisher and M. Perry, TL's shot), I don't think either one was pushing the kids as hard as the nice guy coaches on your list. They have to in order to stay competitive. Our list of players that showed little or no progress from the day they showed up on campus to their graduation day is a long one. I'm not giving credit to UB for IV, since I think that came the summer after his Sophomore year.

I would also attribute Fisher and Perry to Romar, not Soderberg. Marque only played one year under Brad, and Romar was the one who convinced Fisher (and everyone else) that he was a PG, not a SG.

[billiken_roy]

I have no problem with tough demanding coaches. it is the way that demand is communicated that i have a problem with.

i also do not like fake people. a person should be the same in front of the camera as they are when you run into them in the mall. no chameleon's. (btw, no way rickma falls in the chameleon category. i think rickma is as geniune as it gets. that was my issue with spoon)

again, both spoon and rickma are basketball geniuses. i would gladly go with either one if someone said, "pick a coach to win this game" and feel i got a chance even if we were playing the russell led 1966 boston celtics.

[Pistol]

I have no problem with tough demanding coaches. it is the way that demand is communicated that i have a problem with.

i also do not like fake people. a person should be the same in front of the camera as they are when you run into them in the mall. no chameleon's. (btw, no way rickma falls in the chameleon category. i think rickma is as geniune as it gets. that was my issue with spoon)

again, both spoon and rickma are basketball geniuses. i would gladly go with either one if someone said, "pick a coach to win this game" and feel i got a chance even if we were playing the russell led 1966 boston celtics.

So no chameleons and no one too genuine, either?

[billiken_roy]

So no chameleons and no one too genuine, either?

i refuse to answer on the grounds of fear of setting off another message board explosion. my input is done on this issue.

[3star_recruit]

So no chameleons and no one too genuine, either?

It's not as limiting as you make it sound. Our own Tony LaRussa and Dick Vermeil fit within those extremes and they are two very different kinds of personalities.

[William Iken]

"He hangs onto the belief that college sports should be pure like it was back in the 50's and 60's. When coaches were like surrogate dads to their players. They took the blame for losses. They gave their players the credit for wins."

I'm not so sure - Kansas or Kansas State football and a couple of Texas schools in the 1960s had to forfeit all their wins for a couple of years due to illegal recruiting, payments and fancy plane trips. I recall Lamar Hunt being involved. Maybe basketball was different but it seems football was well on its way to win at all cost.

[worthington]

It seems to me, Broy's standard for coaches at SLU is pretty high. While he respects Spoon's and RM's tactical abilities and knowledge of the game, he seems to think both have little character value and are more men of style than substance. It's funny, that he's been most critical of these two coaches. Spoon was successful here for the most part. The book is still out on RM, but he's been very successful elsewhere and is making moves, that appear on the surface, will take us to a higher level. Yet, he does admire both Zo and UB. Both men struggled here in that neither could seem to deliver the caliber of players that we needed to crack the top 50. But both posessed character traits Broy admires. In contrast to Spoon and RM, Zo and UB were likeable stand up guys. Broy would love to sit down and have a few beers with them. He wouldn't even want to be in the same bar with Spoon or RM. Leads me to believe Broy's a throwback. He hangs onto the belief that college sports should be pure like it was back in the 50's and 60's. When coaches were like surrogate dads to their players. They took the blame for losses. They gave their players the credit for wins. Instead of a kick in the a** for losing, the player got praise for trying hard. Sadly, those days are long gone. This is now a cut throat business with some pretty big $$$ involved. From all that's been said or written about RM, I'm not sure I'd want to go drinking with him either. But I have no objection with the fact he's coaching my alma mater. As for recommending a player to him, in a heartbeat to any kid who was mentally strong enough to withstand his approach and passion for winning games. Look, RM's methods are are pretty common among today's successful HC's. Sure, there are exceptions who still win, but most programs with winning records and multiple post season appearances have HC's who are working the tails off their players, culling out the kids who won't make a contribution, and berating them in public forums. Hell, Billy the kid, publicly threw every Freshman he had under the bus after FL failed to make the NCAA's. Is it right? No, but it's the way it is these days. Simple as that.

insightful post. really enjoyed your analysis.

[slu72]

"He hangs onto the belief that college sports should be pure like it was back in the 50's and 60's. When coaches were like surrogate dads to their players. They took the blame for losses. They gave their players the credit for wins."

I'm not so sure - Kansas or Kansas State football and a couple of Texas schools in the 1960s had to forfeit all their wins for a couple of years due to illegal recruiting, payments and fancy plane trips. I recall Lamar Hunt being involved. Maybe basketball was different but it seems football was well on its way to win at all cost.

I would say pure is a relative term. College sports were there purest when they first started back in the 1890's-1900's. Just a continuation of HS. Big stadiums get built, big money starts getting intro'd, bending the rules starts. Hell, college basketball had the betting scandals to contend with. But I think a lot of the coaches back then had "old time" values. It wasn't so much about them as it was the players. Today it's about the coaches. Players come and go, but to sustain the revenue levels required to run an athletic dept you need top notch coaches. Along with that comes some with pretty big egos.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I would say pure is a relative term. College sports were there purest when they first started back in the 1890's-1900's. Just a continuation of HS. Big stadiums get built, big money starts getting intro'd, bending the rules starts. Hell, college basketball had the betting scandals to contend with. But I think a lot of the coaches back then had "old time" values. It wasn't so much about them as it was the players. Today it's about the coaches. Players come and go, but to sustain the revenue levels required to run an athletic dept you need top notch coaches. Along with that comes some with pretty big egos.

I'd argue that Rick is as throwback as it gets. He values education over basketball. He values intellectual diversity. He is a straight shooter that could care less about political correctness. He doesn't coddle his players. He isn't afraid to get in a players face. He has rules that must be followed or you are shown the door. He knows how to win and is a true student of the game. I wasn't around in the 50's, but I didn't think this coddling crap came up until recently. I thought using profanity was much more "acceptable" 30 years ago...when everything you said wasn't posted on the internet and debated to death. Being "tough" always seemed to be more respected, whereas the wussy tree huggin crap these days seems to be the prominent mindset.

No, I don't think Roy is looking for a throwback. He's looking for Brad Soderberg with Rick Majerus's coaching skills.