Det. game random thoughts

[bauman]

Since the other thread on the game seemed more about lighting, the gator chop and player intros than the game itself, I thought I'd start a second thread.

The Officials were awful-Awful-AWFUL! Never seen a slower game with less pace then this and I largely attribute it the the 3 clowns who got paid to be on the floor. If we get to pick officials for our non-conf. home games, then I would hope we don't see any of these clowns until someone else assigns them to one of our games. They set the tone shortly after the opening tip by calling a series of off-ball chippy fouls, none of which should have been called (both for and agin us). KL & BE both had to sit for much of the first half due to this incompetent crew.

As I said a couple of days ago, BE is NOT what I expected or hoped for with regard to rebounding. If we are going to be as good as I hoped he must become more of a force on the boards.

KL cannot come out at the start of the game like he has at PITT and last night and be tentative on offense. He has to start the game playing like he's the man-we can't win if he is not aggressively looking for his shot and draining it, especially in light of the next item.

Tommie-wake up! Look to score. There are 40 minutes to the game, you can't be lackadaisical for most of your time on the court. You must develop some intensity. Play like your future depends on it, because it might.

AK, one-two minutes a game the last couple of games, nuf said. See TL comments above or you need to start shopping for a D 2 school for next year.

BH-great effort and results-loved watching him swat the ball back at the shooter as they drove to the basket. Makes you wonder if Brad didn't waste a year of BH's career. We would have lost w/o BH-it's that simple.

PE-thank heavens we have him. I'd like to see if he can play the point, and relieve DP a little in that role. Only problem is PE needs to shoot more, especially on a night when KL & TL are not much of a threat on offense. This kid should really help us.

DP-a good floor game and better than expected at the line late in the game. If only he had an outside shot.

LM was LM like-that's all that needs to be said-talk about someone you can rely on!

MR-glad to see him hit an outside shot, but gets an (I)ncomplete for the game-not enough time to judge.

RM best part of the day was getting the 5 signatures. As with MR, I will dare to give our HC an Incomplete. I know it is way to early to really judge him or this team and I fully expect to see great things out of RM, his staff and the players as they have more time to learn each other. I just wish he would be less critical in his public comments about some of the players-I'm not sure all will respond as he hopes. I know we have one of the best in-game HCs in college BB, but two fans in the next section to me seemed to have a better grip on one aspect of the game during the last 2-3 minutes. As they kept hollering, we had 4 fouls to give at about that point and we should have been using them b/4 Det. was able to take a shot. We made two of those available fouls as they were shooting giving them 3 pt plays. We actually took a "foul to give" into the locker room with us. If RM was thinking about other issues at that point in the game, you would have thought that one of his Assts. would have thought about that.

I expect that we might get a number of sloppy wins like this early in the season and they are clearly better than well-played losses. Best thing is we are 3-1, as good as any of us probably thought we would be at this point.

One final comment-Students, where are you? We sign a big time coach and it is his and the teams first home game and less than 100 students are in the "Sixth-man" section! P!$$ poor!!! Let's stop all the talk about all the old f@&t$ until the student body gets with the program. In that regard, we need to stop including the "Sixth man" as part of the intros until they earn it.

[AMDG]

One final comment-Students, where are you? We sign a big time coach and it is his and the teams first home game and less than 100 students are in the "Sixth-man" section! P!$$ poor!!! Let's stop all the talk about all the old f@&t$ until the student body gets with the program. In that regard, we need to stop including the "Sixth man" as part of the intros until they earn it.

I cannot agree more. The blue crew has been the biggest joke for a long time. When I went to SLU, my group of four or five friends would stand directly behind the blue crew and make more noise than their entire group. They never make noise on defense and half of them are disinterested girls talking on their cell phones. I can only hope that there will be a bigger student presence at the games once the arena is on campus.

[brianstl]

The officiating was awful. At this point we should expect it and not complain it about it after every game. It will only get better when the A-10 decides it is time to spend more money on officials.

Anybody that is expecting BE to be a monster on the boards is going to be disappointed. His rebounding was a knock against coming out of JUCO and the best we should hope for is average numbers. I stated on here over the summer that it was said BE does not play his size on the boards. BE will be a scorer at the 4 who opposing defenses will have to pay attention to.

KL will be fine and is the last player people should worry about.

I believe Tommie will be fine by the time conference season rolls around if not sooner.

LM is what he is and thank god for that.

The end of the AK era looks like it will be here in April. Harrellson might have been a better option this year.

I feel better about my prediction for BH ending up on the A-10 honorable mention team every day.

DP will always be under appreciated because of his size and his shooting.

PE is way ahead of where I thought he would be.

[jjray]

How much of Tommie's funk (regression from last season) is on Tommie's shoulders and how much responsibility for this does our coach bear? All on Tommie? If a kid loses confidence when a coach tells him he sucks is that the kid's fault? Is tough love always a good remedy for an underperformer? Just curious as to thoughts on this topic. It's a rather important issue as Rickma is who he is. Not likely to change how he handles kids. If Tommie cannot adapt to the tough love approach, our team is in trouble this season and probably next as well. We don't have enough talent to be more than mediocre if Tommie continues performing at the current level.

[billiken_roy]

How much of Tommie's funk (regression from last season) is on Tommie's shoulders and how much responsibility for this does our coach bear? All on Tommie? If a kid loses confidence when a coach tells him he sucks is that the kid's fault? Is tough love always a good remedy for an underperformer? Just curious as to thoughts on this topic. It's a rather important issue as Rickma is who he is. Not likely to change how he handles kids. If Tommie cannot adapt to the tough love approach, our team is in trouble this season and probably next as well. We don't have enough talent to be more than mediocre if Tommie continues performing at the current level.

the play and style we are seeing from lisch and liddell are indeed concerning. i can assure you after knowing and watching kevin lisch basketball since he was 6 his approach is dictated by his coaches. he is doing what he is told i would bet any money on it. that said, i have far too much respect for the lifetime achievement of rick majerus to question what he is doing. i am sure it is all a long range plan that will all come into focus in a matter of months.

same with liddell. if tommie suffers through xmas because he is being mentally spanked now, but it turns him into rip hamilton on both ends of the floor, i'm all for it. if he cant stand up to it, well then tommie isnt the player we thought he was. i believe by reading the quotes we have read, that tommie is buying in, but it is hard for that subconscience control mechinism to kick in during a game. that comes from repetition and constant correcting. which is exactly what majerus is trying to do.

i say let the season play out. if we win 3 out of every 4 games all year long, i am betting all in all we will be pretty happy come april.

[jimbofive]

the play and style we are seeing from lisch and liddell are indeed concerning. i can assure you after knowing and watching kevin lisch basketball since he was 6 his approach is dictated by his coaches. he is doing what he is told i would bet any money on it. that said, i have far too much respect for the lifetime achievement of rick majerus to question what he is doing. i am sure it is all a long range plan that will all come into focus in a matter of months.

same with liddell. if tommie suffers through xmas because he is being mentally spanked now, but it turns him into rip hamilton on both ends of the floor, i'm all for it. if he cant stand up to it, well then tommie isnt the player we thought he was. i believe by reading the quotes we have read, that tommie is buying in, but it is hard for that subconscience control mechinism to kick in during a game. that comes from repetition and constant correcting. which is exactly what majerus is trying to do.

i say let the season play out. if we win 3 out of every 4 games all year long, i am betting all in all we will be pretty happy come april.

Same wavelength today, Roy... I was thinking that last night as well. Kevin is playing the way he is being coached to play. There's no other reason he would not look like himself out there, unless he's being outmatched, and that certainly isn't the case. I made the comment after an unsuccessful drive into multiple defenders that Majerus must have told him to attack no matter what on that possession. It just wasn't Kevin Lisch out there. I'm not saying Majerus' approach is wrong - it just hasn't sunken in yet.

[jjray]

i say let the season play out. if we win 3 out of every 4 games all year long, i am betting all in all we will be pretty happy come april.

Wasn't advocating a chicken little approach to the situation but glad to hear another is concern at what we are seeing currently from Tommie and Kevin. Hope is there that they settle in with more time in the system.

[Westy03]

Maybe it also has to do with the loss of Ian. Paul Biancardi mentioned this in the post game. Tommie and Kevin are used to having more open space to work with and I think its going to take them more then a few games to adjust. Ian was more important to our offense than any other player last year because he would draw 2 or 3 defenders each possesion.

[brianstl]

Maybe it also has to do with the loss of Ian. Paul Biancardi mentioned this in the post game. Tommie and Kevin are used to having more open space to work with and I think its going to take them more then a few games to adjust. Ian was more important to our offense than any other player last year because he would draw 2 or 3 defenders each possesion.

Very good point. The loss of Ian and the new offense are both playing a role.

[Box and Won]

Maybe it also has to do with the loss of Ian. Paul Biancardi mentioned this in the post game. Tommie and Kevin are used to having more open space to work with and I think its going to take them more then a few games to adjust. Ian was more important to our offense than any other player last year because he would draw 2 or 3 defenders each possesion.

An aside, I'm liking what I've seen/heard from Biancardi so far. Just keep it clean, Paulie.

[Clock_Tower]

Very good point. The loss of Ian and the new offense are both playing a role.

It bears repeating... Almost 1 1/2 years ago, Brad said (I am paraphrasing) that he was excited that SLU finally had some depth and options on the inside (4 and 5), that someone needed to step up (BK, AK, OI, HD, JJ), that he would play his best player at the 4 and that someone would have to beat out LM but that if no one did and LM remains his 4, it could be a long year. Last night, BH and BE appeared to alternate at center (replaced IV) for much of the game with LM playing a fair amount at the 4. Last night reminded me of last year.

We definitely are off due to the loss of IV and the presence of our best interior player - BE who is not only adapting to RM but to college ball as well. This year, our substitution patterns our wild. BH in for DP? Who else subs a 7'2" for a 5'7" and vice versa. When this happens, our guys must shift as well as the other team.

My point: I believe this is what RM, and the coaches, mean when they say the team has not yet learned to gel and understand/run the offense. At times, TL is being asked to rebound more (because our 4 and 5 are deficient) and then is being asked to lead and shoot (play the 1 and 2). Dual roles in a new system and a HC demanding he play defense (Brad's pack d works with the right personnel), it is no one he is confused. Likewise, not sure what position KL is playing. Last year, Brad inexplicably shortened the bench and the team eventually settled on 5 guys. The good is that they understood and learned their roles and each seemed to perform well. The downside, of course, is that the team then encountered injuries (such as KL) and the team became exhausted as the season went along and their legs wore down.

Believe RM and his coaches are still testing to see what works. Am glad that RM has not shortened his bench to 5 or 6 players. We will need the entire team come conference play. Don't mind these ugly games because I believe RM has a plan which will succeed this year as well as in the future.

[Band Man]

We all need to be patient as this year develops. Even Biancardi mentioned in his post game show that the offense will take some time to gel. In a motion offense, players must be comfortable where players will be after cuts, where screens will come from, etc. I think this also contributes to the crazy player rotation. RM is trying to see what players have the best chemistry in different situations. This makes perfect sense early in the year especially when we are playing teams that in his mind we should easily beat regardless of if we have an off night.

Early on sloppy wins will be very common, but b/c of our efficiency (we've shot 50% or above from the field every game thus far) and sound defense we will be able to win a lot of games until our offense clicks.

Also, I think that loss of Ian on offense will continue to be mitigated as BH and BE continue to develop into legitimate scoring threats. Right now, teams see TL and KL as our only scoring threats when scouting us...I don't foresee this happening for long. BE will be an effective offensive 4, and if last night was any indication BH will also be able to draw some attention away from the backcourt.

Let's just all be patient and enjoy the 3-1 start. Come conference time (maybe even before) this team will start to gel. If we continue to be as efficient, this team could be very good and make a run in the conference.

[billiken_roy]

Maybe it also has to do with the loss of Ian. Paul Biancardi mentioned this in the post game. Tommie and Kevin are used to having more open space to work with and I think its going to take them more then a few games to adjust. Ian was more important to our offense than any other player last year because he would draw 2 or 3 defenders each possesion.

you must have saw something i didnt last night. there was nothing stifling to what was defending lisch and liddell last night. proof of that was the one fadeaway that kevin did hit. or the drive to the basket with the shot clock running out and the last second dish to meyer. they could have done whatever they wanted last night. they chose not to for some reason. not because they were being stopped.

we won. that is the bottom line. and my gut tells me that holding back tommie and kevin now vs detroit will pay off in added confidence it likely created for bryce or eckerle or a step up jumper by relephorde, etc. down the road. at least that is my rationalization for whatever that was we watched last night.

[billiken_roy]

It bears repeating... Almost 1 1/2 years ago, Brad said (I am paraphrasing) that he was excited that SLU finally had some depth and options on the inside (4 and 5), that someone needed to step up (BK, AK, OI, HD, JJ), that he would play his best player at the 4 and that someone would have to beat out LM but that if no one did and LM remains his 4, it could be a long year. Last night, BH and BE appeared to alternate at center (replaced IV) for much of the game with LM playing a fair amount at the 4. Last night reminded me of last year.

We definitely are off due to the loss of IV and the presence of our best interior player - BE who is not only adapting to RM but to college ball as well. This year, our substitution patterns our wild. BH in for DP? Who else subs a 7'2" for a 5'7" and vice versa. When this happens, our guys must shift as well as the other team.

My point: I believe this is what RM, and the coaches, mean when they say the team has not yet learned to gel and understand/run the offense. At times, TL is being asked to rebound more (because our 4 and 5 are deficient) and then is being asked to lead and shoot (play the 1 and 2). Dual roles in a new system and a HC demanding he play defense (Brad's pack d works with the right personnel), it is no one he is confused. Likewise, not sure what position KL is playing. Last year, Brad inexplicably shortened the bench and the team eventually settled on 5 guys. The good is that they understood and learned their roles and each seemed to perform well. The downside, of course, is that the team then encountered injuries (such as KL) and the team became exhausted as the season went along and their legs wore down.

Believe RM and his coaches are still testing to see what works. Am glad that RM has not shortened his bench to 5 or 6 players. We will need the entire team come conference play. Don't mind these ugly games because I believe RM has a plan which will succeed this year as well as in the future.

clock a thought your post brings out is that we keep hearing about tommie's defense. folks need to remember that tommie played the pack man to man for two seasons. thus that sag when his man doesnt have the ball is ingrained in his head. just gonna take time.

that doesnt mean the pack defense was bad. as you stated, in the right situation it is quite right. but when half the team is playing one way and the other half another, one can imagine that causes a crack in what is trying to be accomplished.

[Westy03]

you must have saw something i didnt last night. there was nothing stifling to what was defending lisch and liddell last night. proof of that was the one fadeaway that kevin did hit. or the drive to the basket with the shot clock running out and the last second dish to meyer. they could have done whatever they wanted last night. they chose not to for some reason. not because they were being stopped.

we won. that is the bottom line. and my gut tells me that holding back tommie and kevin now vs detroit will pay off in added confidence it likely created for bryce or eckerle or a step up jumper by relephorde, etc. down the road. at least that is my rationalization for whatever that was we watched last night.

I think we can all agree that last night was some terrible basketball with a few good plays sprinkled in. One of the first times I thought about leaving early in a very long time

[billiken_roy]

I think we can all agree that last night was some terrible basketball with a few good plays sprinkled in. One of the first times I thought about leaving early in a very long time

without a doubt i agree. however i dont agree that the problems were compounded because kevin or tommie didnt have operating room or were being clamped down defensively. what they saw last night is nothing to the defense they will see in upcoming games like siu (hope no one gets hurt in that upcoming wrestling match) or say a conference game like what george washington will give them.

[Westy03]

without a doubt i agree. however i dont agree that the problems were compounded because kevin or tommie didnt have operating room or were being clamped down defensively. what they saw last night is nothing to the defense they will see in upcoming games like siu (hope no one gets hurt in that upcoming wrestling match) or say a conference game like what george washington will give them.

How can you say that they have just as much space? Did you watch the games last year? Everytime down the floor Ian would get the ball and the ENTIRE defense would sag down. Lisch would get wide open looks each game due to this. Im not doubting Kevin getting open looks on his own but last night you could tell he was working hard to get opened and he was unsuccessful. The guy defending him was face guarding him the whole game which never would of happened last year due to Ian's presence. He will adapt and be a better player but it will take time to learn and adjust.

[billiken_roy]

How can you say that they have just as much space? Did you watch the games last year? Everytime down the floor Ian would get the ball and the ENTIRE defense would sag down. Lisch would get wide open looks each game due to this. Im not doubting Kevin getting open looks on his own but last night you could tell he was working hard to get opened and he was unsuccessful. The guy defending him was face guarding him the whole game which never would of happened last year due to Ian's presence. He will adapt and be a better player but it will take time to learn and adjust.

doubles last year didnt come from the players guarding kevin and tommie.

[Westy03]

doubles last year didnt come from the players guarding kevin and tommie.

I agree but it still switches the defense. Lukes man last year would double Ian most of the time and Ian would kick to Luke which forced the other defenders(who were guarding Kevin and Tommie) to rotate which in turn gave those two open space to work with. Now Barry and Bryce are being defended one on one so the players guarding Kevin and Tommie dont have to worry about rotating, they can just focus on denying them the basketball.

[slufanskip]

I agree but it still switches the defense. Lukes man last year would double Ian most of the time and Ian would kick to Luke which forced the other defenders(who were guarding Kevin and Tommie) to rotate which in turn gave those two open space to work with. Now Barry and Bryce are being defended one on one so the players guarding Kevin and Tommie dont have to worry about rotating, they can just focus on denying them the basketball.

If ... and I think he can, Bryce can put a few good offensive games together the defense will start collapsing on him also. They did last night in the second half. Everybody is a bit too worried about what is wrong. We are learning a new system, it's not easy. A few players seem to be a little ahead of others, but it will take time. Let's just relax, watch the progression and enjoy.

[Clock_Tower]

If ... and I think he can, Bryce can put a few good offensive games together the defense will start collapsing on him also. They did last night in the second half. Everybody is a bit too worried about what is wrong. We are learning a new system, it's not easy. A few players seem to be a little ahead of others, but it will take time. Let's just relax, watch the progression and enjoy.

BH had a good game and was quite effective for the 17 minutes he played. BH had been injured and is improving. I have, and continue to have, doubts about BH. With that said, opposing game plans and defensive schemes will not change much for guys who play only 17 minutes. Minor adjustments when the big guy is on the floor, maybe.

[slufanskip]

BH had a good game and was quite effective for the 17 minutes he played. BH had been injured and is improving. I have, and continue to have, doubts about BH. With that said, opposing game plans and defensive schemes will not change much for guys who play only 17 minutes. Minor adjustments when the big guy is on the floor, maybe.

What I said was if he puts a few good offensive games together, when he gets the ball the defense will sag down and double up on him. They did last night and other teams will also. The opponent will game plan to deal with Bryce when he is in the game, whether he plays 15 minutes or 30 minutes if he continues to be effective offensively. I doubt they will be game planning to stop him when he is out or if he doesn't continue to be a threat.

[TDELL]

Tommie's doing what our so-called coach wants, its not Tommie its the coach..

[moytoy12]

our so-called coach

Interesting...