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Rick's post game comments about Tommie 3 sticks


brianstl

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Sorry if this was posted earlier (I took the weekend off from here).

From TT's blog:

He singled out Tommie Liddell again, saying that if he had more players who could play, Majerus would “sit him even more.” Obviously, Majerus is sending a message to Liddell about the need to play hard, especially on defense. He singled out a play where an UMSL player drove past Liddell for a basket and said “good players don’t let that happen.” Will Majerus push this as far as keeping Liddell out of the starting lineup in the season opener on Friday? Maybe. Tommie sounds receptive to Majerus’ efforts, saying on Friday that Majerus is the first coach EVER to require him to go all out all the time. Majerus obviously knows SLU can’t win without Liddell contributing a lot - Friday’s game showed that the team isn’t too long on scorers - so I would think this is a short term rather than a long term thing.

http://www.stltoday.com/blogs/sports-billi...7/11/post-umsl/

Tommie is definitely in his doghouse right now. I think it will be the best thing that ends up ever happening to Tommie's game.

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Got to watch a little of the practice on Sat. RM does not discriminate in practice.. Lots of running for all the guys when they don't hustle, miss a pass, make a silly mistake. Fun to watch. RM never stops teaching..the entire practice he was teaching every minute of it.

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Got to watch a little of the practice on Sat. RM does not discriminate in practice.. Lots of running for all the guys when they don't hustle, miss a pass, make a silly mistake. Fun to watch. RM never stops teaching..the entire practice he was teaching every minute of it.

Thanks for the insight. I have to laugh every time I see Majerus quoted saying, "maybe I'm not a good coach anymore... who knows?" The one thing I kept thinking every time I would look at the bench on Friday was "hey, that looks like a real bench now. Coaches actively COACHING."

I think Tommie's got the right attitude going into this rough spell, and Majerus is right to put him through it. Nobody ever got any better from the old oral/anal smoke injection technique. Majerus will make anyone up to the challenge a better player. I think... :)

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Got to watch a little of the practice on Sat. RM does not discriminate in practice.. Lots of running for all the guys when they don't hustle, miss a pass, make a silly mistake. Fun to watch. RM never stops teaching..the entire practice he was teaching every minute of it.

Its been said on here before but I'll say it again, every Billiken fan should read Majerus' book. I'm about 2/3 of the way through it and it really does provide a lot of insight into what he is thinking. In one of the chapters he focuses on Britton Johnson and how hard he was on him as a freshman. Not everyone can take his hard love but those that do almost surely are better for it. Personally, I believe Tommie is ready for the hard love but you just hope RM doesn't push him too far.

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If TL is serious about a career in the NBA then he'll adjust and listen to RM. Am sure there is psychology involved here, but also RM considers himself a teacher, and what do teachers hate most, at least the good ones? To see a talented student underachieve. If TL takes this in the manner it's intended he'll be a much better player and person for it. I think he's said as much himself.

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I think this whole "TL in the Doghouse" thread sums up a lot of what is wrong in the world of sports today. Namely, the coddling the various entourages provide these superstar wannabees. Hey, I don't know Tommie from Sebastian Telfair to DeJuan Wagner. But it sounds as if Tommie has experienced a sports life with little to no constructive criticism or collective teaching. Even Tommie himself said that. That's a nice quote, at least the kid has character. More power to him and here's hoping he succeeds. While that says reams about Tommie's natural, God-given talent, it also says a lot of how wrong things have seemed to have gone. These kids become nothing more than lottery plays for others in the entourage. If Iverson/Vick/Hughes/James/Mayo hit it big, I'm going along for the ride as well. Don't criticize or correct, you may find yourself on the outside looking in when the cash comes calling. If a coach so much as sneezes at the prospective meal ticket, the entourage is all over the kid with advice that, frankly, best suits the member making the statement. Boras tells the Yankees the basement floor for ARod is #350 million? I really hope his only offer is with the Toldeo Mud hens but you know that won't hold out.

The Baltimore Sun had an interesting article yesterday on how the big time programs recruit now on a year-by-year basis. They have to. Ohio State lost three starters from last year's squad to the NBA. Florida lost three starters, all juniors, in the first nine picks. Matta and Donovan are in tough boats. So too are guys like Calipari and Pitino and Huggins and Thompson III (yeah, oh, boo-hoo for them). But that's the new reality in collge ball --- kids are coming mostly to sit out the one year NBA requirement to 19 and that's it. College ball is rapidly apporoaching the mercenary stage that pro sports find themselves in. (By the way, the Sun's article had many lists and the second one in "New Faces, New Places" was Majerus and us. Said Majerus will "revive dormant Billiken basketball.") Florida was likely the last "dynasty" program as we know it namely because if the kid has talent, they will be gone. Never again will one see a run like Duke where they made seven or nine or whatever Final Fours.

This is another reason I don't particularly care for or follow the NBA. I have no emotional investment in any professional team. Like a play or a movie or a broadway show, the sporting event is "entertain me" now. The only connection I have is with the Bills. Old Alma Mater U!

As for SLU players in the NBA, we shall see. I find it much more interesting to sit around tournaments and converse with guys like Jeff Harris and Carlos MacCauley then hoping Larry Hughes walks through the door. Bottom line for me is even if they do make it, so what? I don't have an answer to that question. The more important answer to so what if asked about any player is an answer that says "He's a Saint Louis University Billiken basketball player." I say let's get Thompson and Reed and Conkiln and Mitchell and Griffey and Anderson in the fold first. We'll worry about the rest later.

Let's crawl before we walk. You guys sprinting ahead of the pack, you need to slow down.

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RM's approach obviously is a lot different than what we're used to. Previous coaches, due to lack of talent, would have played TL 35+mpg even if he had a domino's supreme delivered to practice, ala Spicola. I sense a feeling on the board that this season may not play out as we all planned. Sure many of us predicted a 20+ win year, but in the back of our minds are RM's comments that "hey, we're not that good, yet". And to see one of the best players ever at SLU being benched, until he gets with the program, isn't easing anyone's anxiety level. "My, God, what chance do we have without TL on the floor for 35+.?" Not much. While RM isn't going to throw this season down the toilet just to make a point and set the tenor for the future, neither do I think he's aiming that high this year. He's looking down the road to when his talent arrives. So, we may have to cool our jets for a year or two until SLU reaches anywhere near the level of success he had at Utah. Or put another way, RM won't be passing out kudos and giving the team an A grade if they win 19 games and fail to make post season. More like a C+.

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I think this whole "TL in the Doghouse" thread sums up a lot of what is wrong in the world of sports today. Namely, the coddling the various entourages provide these superstar wannabees. Hey, I don't know Tommie from Sebastian Telfair to DeJuan Wagner. But it sounds as if Tommie has experienced a sports life with little to no constructive criticism or collective teaching. Even Tommie himself said that. That's a nice quote, at least the kid has character. More power to him and here's hoping he succeeds. While that says reams about Tommie's natural, God-given talent, it also says a lot of how wrong things have seemed to have gone. These kids become nothing more than lottery plays for others in the entourage. If Iverson/Vick/Hughes/James/Mayo hit it big, I'm going along for the ride as well. Don't criticize or correct, you may find yourself on the outside looking in when the cash comes calling. If a coach so much as sneezes at the prospective meal ticket, the entourage is all over the kid with advice that, frankly, best suits the member making the statement. Boras tells the Yankees the basement floor for ARod is #350 million? I really hope his only offer is with the Toldeo Mud hens but you know that won't hold out.

The Baltimore Sun had an interesting article yesterday on how the big time programs recruit now on a year-by-year basis. They have to. Ohio State lost three starters from last year's squad to the NBA. Florida lost three starters, all juniors, in the first nine picks. Matta and Donovan are in tough boats. So too are guys like Calipari and Pitino and Huggins and Thompson III (yeah, oh, boo-hoo for them). But that's the new reality in collge ball --- kids are coming mostly to sit out the one year NBA requirement to 19 and that's it. College ball is rapidly apporoaching the mercenary stage that pro sports find themselves in. (By the way, the Sun's article had many lists and the second one in "New Faces, New Places" was Majerus and us. Said Majerus will "revive dormant Billiken basketball.") Florida was likely the last "dynasty" program as we know it namely because if the kid has talent, they will be gone. Never again will one see a run like Duke where they made seven or nine or whatever Final Fours.

This is another reason I don't particularly care for or follow the NBA. I have no emotional investment in any professional team. Like a play or a movie or a broadway show, the sporting event is "entertain me" now. The only connection I have is with the Bills. Old Alma Mater U!

As for SLU players in the NBA, we shall see. I find it much more interesting to sit around tournaments and converse with guys like Jeff Harris and Carlos MacCauley then hoping Larry Hughes walks through the door. Bottom line for me is even if they do make it, so what? I don't have an answer to that question. The more important answer to so what if asked about any player is an answer that says "He's a Saint Louis University Billiken basketball player." I say let's get Thompson and Reed and Conkiln and Mitchell and Griffey and Anderson in the fold first. We'll worry about the rest later.

Let's crawl before we walk. You guys sprinting ahead of the pack, you need to slow down.

The flip side to your points is that the mid-majors and upper-mid-major-just-below-BCS-conference-level-teams of the world have a legit chance to make noise and be successful. While I agree that many BCS programs have become rest stops for the NBA bound players, the non-BCS schools have been able to play catch-up with kids who normally stay all four years. I understand that we'll bemoan the mercenary nature of most major colleges, but we should also cheer the rise of the non-BCS schools that are doing it with quality kids.

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I think this whole "TL in the Doghouse" thread sums up a lot of what is wrong in the world of sports today. Namely, the coddling the various entourages provide these superstar wannabees. Hey, I don't know Tommie from Sebastian Telfair to DeJuan Wagner. But it sounds as if Tommie has experienced a sports life with little to no constructive criticism or collective teaching. Even Tommie himself said that.

I think the only thing about this post in relation to Tommie that is true is the fact that you don't know him, so to indirectly lump him with a character like Telfair is wrong. Tommie has been guided and reared correctly from his parents and family members. Which sort of explains how a kid from an extemely disadvantaged background with all kinds of pitfalls that only few could imagine, could one day be accepted at Saint Louis U.

As far as lacking constructive criticism in his athletic career, again you are wrong. I would agree that the people who had the ability to put action behind critique, namely Dennis Brooks and Brad Soderberg should have done more. My take on what Tommie has said about Coach Majerus is that Majerus is the first coach to put action behind that critique. So I say good for coach, however these excessive comments about Tommie's play and practice habits are meant for other players as well. I mean if coach can publicly call out his avowed "best player"

what does that say about the standing of the support players. To me it's a great motivational tool for all.

Although you didn't say this, I think it was SLU72 who mentions Tommie as an underachiever, well damn. I guess being named to CollegeInsiders Freshmen All-American Team, A-10 Rookie of the Year, named to the A-10 European summer travelling team, 2nd team A-10 as a sophomore, pre-season 2nd team A-10 as a junior, and being recognized by some as one of the A-10 top 5 players can be perceived as an underachiever boggles the mind. When was the last time SLU had a player of this caliber. I guess these views go a long way in explaining how Dustin Maguire could go from being a player who could help the team to someone who could possibly help SIU-E.

Tommie is going to lose in all comparisons to players like Luke Meyer and Kevin Lisch. Tommie is the great athlete who has been undeservedly blessed by God with all these athletic gifts. Players like Meyer and Lisch are at this level due to their sheer will and determination. The thinking goes somewhere along the lines of if Tommie only worked as hard as those two he could really be something. You have to careful because that kind of thinking is inherently biased. Nobody has given Tommie a free pass. He has earned all that he has achieved at this point. Will Tommie ever be the on the ball hawk as Lisch, probably not. Will Lisch ever be one of the leading rebounders for SLU, probably not. Will Tommie ever have the toughness and guile of Luke, I doubt it, but will Luke ever demand the attention of multiple defenders which allows other players to have open looks and opportunities for offensive rebounds, probably not. It's a team game, all parts contribute.

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I think this whole "TL in the Doghouse" thread sums up a lot of what is wrong in the world of sports today. Namely, the coddling the various entourages provide these superstar wannabees. Hey, I don't know Tommie from Sebastian Telfair to DeJuan Wagner. But it sounds as if Tommie has experienced a sports life with little to no constructive criticism or collective teaching. Even Tommie himself said that.

I think the only thing about this post in relation to Tommie that is true is the fact that you don't know him, so to indirectly lump him with a character like Telfair is wrong. Tommie has been guided and reared correctly from his parents and family members. Which sort of explains how a kid from an extemely disadvantaged background with all kinds of pitfalls that only few could imagine, could one day be accepted at Saint Louis U.

As far as lacking constructive criticism in his athletic career, again you are wrong. I would agree that the people who had the ability to put action behind critique, namely Dennis Brooks and Brad Soderberg should have done more. My take on what Tommie has said about Coach Majerus is that Majerus is the first coach to put action behind that critique. So I say good for coach, however these excessive comments about Tommie's play and practice habits are meant for other players as well. I mean if coach can publicly call out his avowed "best player"

what does that say about the standing of the support players. To me it's a great motivational tool for all.

Although you didn't say this, I think it was SLU72 who mentions Tommie as an underachiever, well damn. I guess being named to CollegeInsiders Freshmen All-American Team, A-10 Rookie of the Year, named to the A-10 European summer travelling team, 2nd team A-10 as a sophomore, pre-season 2nd team A-10 as a junior, and being recognized by some as one of the A-10 top 5 players can be perceived as an underachiever boggles the mind. When was the last time SLU had a player of this caliber. I guess these views go a long way in explaining how Dustin Maguire could go from being a player who could help the team to someone who could possibly help SIU-E.

Tommie is going to lose in all comparisons to players like Luke Meyer and Kevin Lisch. Tommie is the great athlete who has been undeservedly blessed by God with all these athletic gifts. Players like Meyer and Lisch are at this level due to their sheer will and determination. The thinking goes somewhere along the lines of if Tommie only worked as hard as those two he could really be something. You have to careful because that kind of thinking is inherently biased. Nobody has given Tommie a free pass. He has earned all that he has achieved at this point. Will Tommie ever be the on the ball hawk as Lisch, probably not. Will Lisch ever be one of the leading rebounders for SLU, probably not. Will Tommie ever have the toughness and guile of Luke, I doubt it, but will Luke ever demand the attention of multiple defenders which allows other players to have open looks and opportunities for offensive rebounds, probably not. It's a team game, all parts contribute.

Jale Jarr, I personally think way too much is being made of coach's comments. As you said, he's our best player...he get's the public criticism. Would anybody really care if he said Marcus Relphorde isn't putting out enough effort? Doubtful.

One thing really did interest me from your post though. What's this about being named to the A-10 European summer team??? I've never heard about this. Did I just miss it or what?

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JaleJarr,

Those were very astute observations and I couldn't have said it better myself. As the old-timers might note, I was a critic of Liddell during his senior year at East Side. I thought he had immense skills, but always questioned the drive and desire. Now it looks like Majerus has made similar observations. However, I'm more encouraged about Liddell's potential than ever before. First, Brooks and Soderberg don't have the pedigree of a Majerus and don't command the same level of respect. I'm actually excited about Liddell's apparent openness to Majerus' harsh critiques and think he'll be a better player because of it. While he might never have the toughness of a Meyer or the defensive tenacity of a Lisch, I do think Liddell needs to find a killer instinct as a scorer and defensive stopper. If he does that, then we've got something here.

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Jale Jarr, I personally think way too much is being made of coach's comments. As you said, he's our best player...he get's the public criticism. Would anybody really care if he said Marcus Relphorde isn't putting out enough effort? Doubtful.

One thing really did interest me from your post though. What's this about being named to the A-10 European summer team??? I've never heard about this. Did I just miss it or what?

He was named to the team, but attended summer classes.

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Great common sense post. Another example of not giving TL credit where it is due is his 3 pt % increase last year. Sure, Brad came up with a plan to modify his stroke, but TL put in the long hours to change what he had been doing for years. Hard work! Way to go!

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Great post, JaleJarr. It bugs me how certain players get typecast as heady hustlers on one hand and others get typecast as merely gifted athletes -- and the pivot point is race. Luke Meyer and Kevin Lisch ARE gifted athletes. Dwayne Polk and Tommie Liddell ARE smart (in the sense of knowing the game), hard workers. I don't know any of these guys (except I have met and had a couple of conversations with Polk), but I'm certain that, if Polk and Liddell hadn't worked hard and that if Meyer and Lisch weren't athletically gifted, they wouldn't be in the position they're in now.

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Jalejarr, guilty as charged. I said it. However, what I meant was that from RM's perspective he's not as good as he can be. Underachiever was definitely not the best choice of words, given TL's accomplishments to date. Mea Culpas on my part. There isn't one poster on this board that doesn't want the best for TL. Glad to hear even you say this is good for him, ie a coach that knows he can better and is pushing him toward that end. In the long run am sure TL will adjust to RM's needs/wants and he'll be better for it. Again, sorry for the term, it wasn't intended to be a slam.

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Jalejarr, guilty as charged. I said it. However, what I meant was that from RM's perspective he's not as good as he can be. Underachiever was definitely not the best choice of words, given TL's accomplishments to date. Mea Culpas on my part. There isn't one poster on this board that doesn't want the best for TL. Glad to hear even you say this is good for him, ie a coach that knows he can better and is pushing him toward that end. In the long run am sure TL will adjust to RM's needs/wants and he'll be better for it. Again, sorry for the term, it wasn't intended to be a slam.

My only gripe about RM's handling of Tommie is the what I would call piling on to the press. For example he said and I am paraphrasing that Tommie wasn't giving the effort he required of him defensively ... and he didn't start him. That's fine and I agree with that, there was no way he could have not started him and not explained why. But ... then to add that if I had more players I'd have sat him even longer ... imo was just stupid. That statement didn't even need to be made, it was piling on.

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Another example of not giving TL credit where it is due is his 3 pt % increase last year. Sure, Brad came up with a plan to modify his stroke, but TL put in the long hours to change what he had been doing for years. Hard work! Way to go!

This is why I stated, when Rick first started getting on Tommie, I thought people were overreating. Tommie has responded to every challenge thrown his way so far. I believe he will respond to this one too. I think he will be a better player than some of us could have imagined.

I started this post not as a rip on Tommie, but rather to point out how hard Rick can be on players he expects the most out of. People when you hear Rick call a player out publicly it is because he believes that player is one of the most important players to the team.

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Great post, JaleJarr. It bugs me how certain players get typecast as heady hustlers on one hand and others get typecast as merely gifted athletes -- and the pivot point is race. Luke Meyer and Kevin Lisch ARE gifted athletes. Dwayne Polk and Tommie Liddell ARE smart (in the sense of knowing the game), hard workers. I don't know any of these guys (except I have met and had a couple of conversations with Polk), but I'm certain that, if Polk and Liddell hadn't worked hard and that if Meyer and Lisch weren't athletically gifted, they wouldn't be in the position they're in now.

I am calling BS on this. Most of the players that have gotten credit from Billiken fans for their hard work and smart play have been African American. Donnie Dobbs, Jeff Harris, Anthony Bonner, J Love, Roland Gray, etc.. Just last year 3 Sticks was getting praise left and right on this board for all the hard work he put in on his 3 point shooting.
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Tommie is always going to appear to be underachieving, because he makes the game look easy. That's his style. Just because he might appear to be loitering on the wing w/ the ball, doesn't mean his mind isn't going a mile a minute, looking for cutters, holes in the D, etc.

I'm not letting Tommie completely off the hook, I think he can step up the defense and be a little bit smarter with the ball. But it's RIDICULOUS how little respect he gets for his rebounding. Saw him described as a "good" rebounder for a guard by some publication or another the other day. Anything less than "tremendous" as a descriptor for his rebounding is an insult. I don't have time to look up rebounding stats for guards, but he has to be near the top, in all conferences. There are trade-offs. Maybe he does sluff off a little bit on D. But you can bet he's in there banging for the rebound. And as a skinny guy, myself, I can say that that's not easy to do for 30+ minutes.

I don't pretend to know Tommie, but I gather from his on-court demeanor that he is a very reserved guy. You can see sparks of his intensity from time to time, like when he went apes$!t after that ridiculous putback dunk at home last year. The only way he can increase that intensity at this point is to get called out about it. Even if he ends up hating Majerus, he'll have that motivator in his pocket when he needs to take over a game, as a leader of this team.

This has nothing to do w/ being a prima donna. Tommie's not out there taking stupid shots or barking down his teammates' necks for his mistakes. He simply doesn't always recognize when it's time to turn it up. I want to see him use his deceptiveness on the defensive end. Other teams might have him labeled an iffy defender now because of Majerus' remarks, and w/ his athleticism, he's more capable than anyone on the team to rocket into those "open" passing lanes and start our fast break.

Tommie will get it together. Balee dat.

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I am calling BS on this. Most of the players that have gotten credit from Billiken fans for their hard work and smart play have been African American. Donnie Dobbs, Jeff Harris, Anthony Bonner, J Love, Roland Gray, etc.. Just last year 3 Sticks was getting praise left and right on this board for all the hard work he put in on his 3 point shooting.

I'm talking about a pervasive general perception -- one that affects even me. Sure, players may get their props after the fact, but when they're recruits and freshmen, the typecasting is rampant. And such typecasting follows them for quite some time.

Go ahead; call Brad Soderberg! What do I care? ;)

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Great post, JaleJarr. It bugs me how certain players get typecast as heady hustlers on one hand and others get typecast as merely gifted athletes -- and the pivot point is race. Luke Meyer and Kevin Lisch ARE gifted athletes. Dwayne Polk and Tommie Liddell ARE smart (in the sense of knowing the game), hard workers. I don't know any of these guys (except I have met and had a couple of conversations with Polk), but I'm certain that, if Polk and Liddell hadn't worked hard and that if Meyer and Lisch weren't athletically gifted, they wouldn't be in the position they're in now.

JaleJar and thicks are right on the money with this one. I really think coach is going after Tommie has as much to do with getting the attention of the entire team as it does with motivating TL. The other players have to think that if Majerus is going after our best player, we better step up our intensity too. Agreed with thicks on some of the stereotype traps we fall into. That dunk Meyer made against St. Joe's last year showed that he's a pretty good athlete and there's no doubt Kevin is a heck of an athlete. As for a kid like Polk, it's obvious he is a hard worker who has been able to overcome some of his physical limitations to be a D1 player.

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Jalejarr, guilty as charged. I said it. However, what I meant was that from RM's perspective he's not as good as he can be. Underachiever was definitely not the best choice of words, given TL's accomplishments to date. Mea Culpas on my part. There isn't one poster on this board that doesn't want the best for TL. Glad to hear even you say this is good for him, ie a coach that knows he can better and is pushing him toward that end. In the long run am sure TL will adjust to RM's needs/wants and he'll be better for it. Again, sorry for the term, it wasn't intended to be a slam.

JaleJarr. Good points - especially as to the RM sending a message to the entire team and not just TL.

As to the comment about TL possibly being an "underachiever", believe SLU72 clarified his comments nicely and doesn't need my help. Keep in mind, though, that many comments on this Board are made to quickly make a point from one fan to other fans. Time and space limits do not allow comments to be so well crafted to prevent comments from being taken in an unexpected direction by the reader. Unlike spoken words, written posts do not always reveal the manner and tone behind the written words.

Still, "underachiever" does not mean "no good". Instead it is a term that relates to his performance as measured against his own abilities, whether real or perceived.

For instance, IV was a really good player for us over his career. A simple review of his stats and the many honors he received indicate the same. This year, we all can only hope that AK, BH and/or others can fill IV's shoes. IMO, IV was more talented than BH and probably AK are. Talent has nothing to do with it.

With that said, I flat out consider IV to have been an underachiever last year. I posted the same in the past and now post again now. Had IV played the way I believe he was capable (like I saw his Junior year), the Bills would have gone to the post-season last year. This year, if BH and/or AK do not put up stats equal to what IV did, I certainly would not consider either BH or AK to be "underachievers" or to have "underacheived" this year. IV was projected to be an NBA prospect. BH and AK are not. When an NBA prospect does not improve his game (no doubt as both Brad and the NBA scouts told him) and then has a less impressive Senior year than his Junior year, IMO he is an underachiever regardless of the stats and/or honors he garners.

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JaleJarr. Good points - especially as to the RM sending a message to the entire team and not just TL.

As to the comment about TL possibly being an "underachiever", believe SLU72 clarified his comments nicely and doesn't need my help. Keep in mind, though, that many comments on this Board are made to quickly make a point from one fan to other fans. Time and space limits do not allow comments to be so well crafted to prevent comments from being taken in an unexpected direction by the reader. Unlike spoken words, written posts do not always reveal the manner and tone behind the written words.

Still, "underachiever" does not mean "no good". Instead it is a term that relates to his performance as measured against his own abilities, whether real or perceived.

For instance, IV was a really good player for us over his career. A simple review of his stats and the many honors he received indicate the same. This year, we all can only hope that AK, BH and/or others can fill IV's shoes. IMO, IV was more talented than BH and probably AK are. Talent has nothing to do with it.

With that said, I flat out consider IV to have been an underachiever last year. I posted the same in the past and now post again now. Had IV played the way I believe he was capable (like I saw his Junior year), the Bills would have gone to the post-season last year. This year, if BH and/or AK do not put up stats equal to what IV did, I certainly would not consider either BH or AK to be "underachievers" or to have "underacheived" this year. IV was projected to be an NBA prospect. BH and AK are not. When an NBA prospect does not improve his game (no doubt as both Brad and the NBA scouts told him) and then has a less impressive Senior year than his Junior year, IMO he is an underachiever regardless of the stats and/or honors he garners.

Funny, Clock, I was going to post about IV's senior season as him having been an underachiever. A little "what if" here for a moment. What if RM had taken over last year. How good could IV have been? Would he have been drafted. With the exception of the UNC game, IV pretty much phoned it in last year to my way of thinking. Yes, he was doubled, tripled, etc, but he started getting that his Junior year as well. Then the light goes off in UB's head saying I won't start him. Suddenly, IV shows up and starts playing again. A lot of us here think if he'd been benched earlier, his senior season may have turned out a whole lot better. What, he went from first team all conference to all no mention anywhere. Sorry, that just doesn't or shouldn't happen, especially after being invited to an NBA camp. The lesson of IV is talent alone ain't enough. There's got to be some serious intense effort expended at this level of play. This is not intended to cast TL and IV in the same light at all. In fact, would expect TL to respond to RM's techniques/style and be the better player for it. By the way, I do agree w/ Cheese, I think it was Chesse, RM should lighten up on his comments to the press about the situation. The fact that he didn't start and was not injured, tells the story, which is, you can be a whole lot better TL and RM's trying to bring out your best.

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